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Do I deserve an apology?
Thread poster: Alex Wang
Kay Denney
Kay Denney  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 11:58
French to English
illegal??? Aug 27, 2017

LilianNekipelov wrote:

and the company provides them. He may have been rude, which is bad, but many less professional agencies get on your nerves, too, since they expect the text corrected this minute, and the corrections sent exactly the away they want them submitted, or processed, which sometimes does not make much sense. I do not think you should expect any apology, Alex, and even if the subcontractor is extremely rude, which is bad, of course, but he did the job, you still have to pay them without dely. No vendettas allowed.


There are plenty of things that should be illegal, like forcing translators to post invoices in silly systems where they decide which jobs they're prepared to get invoices for, but surely a client is allowed to expect you to use the same software as everyone else on the same team? At least until we get full compatibility, which will never happen. It's far more likely that the behemoth will wipe everyone else out, that's how capitalism works.


 
Samuel Murray
Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 11:58
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
What do you mean by "an apology"? Aug 27, 2017

Alex Wang wrote:
After this was over, I asked him to give me an apology...


What does that even mean? (-:

... because I told him that his behavior was simply unprofessional and unacceptable. He refused and...


If I ever were to behave unprofessionally, I would apologise without being asked. And if an agency were to tell me that in their opinion I had behaved unprofessionally, I would reply in a diplomatic way (and if I agree with them, then I would apologise). But if an agency were to demand an apology from me, then I would not give it. Could this be a cultural thing?

I’m wondering:
1. Do I deserve an apology from him for his unprofessional and unacceptable behavior after suffering through his abusive emails and the waste of more than half an hour of my time for something that he should have done in the first place?


Yes, I think you do.

2. Is it reasonable for me to hold his payment until I have that apology?


No. You should pay if the service was rendered, regardless of whether you had a pleasant experience.

3. Do I have the right to hold his payment until he apologizes?


No, because the thing that you feel he should apologise for wasn't part of the initial agreement, and he is not breaking any agreement by refusing to apologise.

I guess that it is a little hard for me to think clearly since I am now involved in this case with him.


You are upset because of his upsetting behaviour -- I understand that and I think I know what you're going through. Unfortunately this is one of those situations in which you have to let go of the issue and simply do the right thing with a grimace.


[Edited at 2017-08-27 11:44 GMT]


 
Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT
Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 11:58
Member (2005)
English to Spanish
+ ...
Illegal? Aug 27, 2017

LilianNekipelov wrote:
Yeah, I think it should be illegal to request any CAT tools unless it is some long project

The solution is not to make things illegal. If they are unacceptable for you, simply do not do them. It is your personal decision, and your personal decisions should not be the rule for everybody else.


 
Christine Andersen
Christine Andersen  Identity Verified
Denmark
Local time: 11:58
Member (2003)
Danish to English
+ ...
You cannot force people to use a particular CAT tool... Aug 27, 2017

... My own policy is My CAT tool or no CAT tool - I have had too much hassle with inferior CATs and online systems that froze, while I was not able to use my own glossaries and terminology databases etc. However, I happily deliver bilingual files or TM exports that can be used with other systems.

Most of the major CATs are supposed to be compatible, and it is not too much IMHO to ask for a correctly formatted Word file, which the client can then align with the source if all else fai
... See more
... My own policy is My CAT tool or no CAT tool - I have had too much hassle with inferior CATs and online systems that froze, while I was not able to use my own glossaries and terminology databases etc. However, I happily deliver bilingual files or TM exports that can be used with other systems.

Most of the major CATs are supposed to be compatible, and it is not too much IMHO to ask for a correctly formatted Word file, which the client can then align with the source if all else fails.

There is a limit to how much time I would spend on e-mails over a 300-word text. I agree that abuse is always unprofessional, but then I would simply move on and look for a translator who used the preferred CAT, or at least delivered compatible files - as requested - from the start.
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Mirko Mainardi
Mirko Mainardi  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 11:58
Member
English to Italian
With Rossana Aug 27, 2017

I agree with Rossana: "I understand the frustration, but let it go, pay up when the bill is due, and simply never work with that translator again."

 
Elizabeth Tamblin
Elizabeth Tamblin  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 10:58
French to English
No Aug 27, 2017

We all get treated badly from time to time. If someone apologises of their own accord, that's nice, but a forced apology is meaningless.

 
Alex Wang
Alex Wang
Local time: 05:58
English to Chinese
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Legal matters Aug 27, 2017

I want to thank everyone who takes precious time out of your busy life to write your comments. I really appreciate it. They help me see different perspectives of the issue.

As all of you probably can tell, it is not a fight about money because the time that I have spent on this is worth a lot more than what I owe him. It is a fight about the feeling of pride. He has his pride, but I have mine as well. It is also very hard for me to let it go because I feel that it is as if I walked
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I want to thank everyone who takes precious time out of your busy life to write your comments. I really appreciate it. They help me see different perspectives of the issue.

As all of you probably can tell, it is not a fight about money because the time that I have spent on this is worth a lot more than what I owe him. It is a fight about the feeling of pride. He has his pride, but I have mine as well. It is also very hard for me to let it go because I feel that it is as if I walked into a store to buy something; instead of being served, I am mistreated and bullied.

According to what he told me, he used to own several stores; therefore, he can tell me what to do, but I cannot tell him what to do. At least that is the feeling I get; otherwise, why would a translator tell the outsourcer that he used to own several stores? I believe that he still feels that he is the boss.

The directions:

Yes, the directions that I gave for the project could not be more clear because this is what I put in red in the third line of the project description:
Deliverables: bilingual translation file and clean Word file

CAT tool:

According to him, one of the reasons that he refused to comply was that it takes too much time to create a project using a CAT tool, and not every agency requires using a CAD tool.

In response to the discussion about the use of a CAT tool as a translator, my take is this:
the outsourcer has every right to specify whatever requirement they want, no matter how ridiculous a translator may feel it is. The only option that the translator has is not to take it. Please keep in mind: the translator is the one who has the power to decide whether to take a project or not, but the translator has no right to control what the outsourcer wants.

Legal matters:

I am not a legal expert, and I would like to hear from those who know more about the law than I do. Since I am located in the United States, I would assume that would be the law of the United States. From my experience of translating numerous purchase agreements between companies, here are my thoughts:

1. Even though there is no written purchase contract between us, when the translator agrees to take a project based on the specified terms, the two parties (I as Party A and the German translator as Party B in this case) have implicitly entered a contract according to which the translator will be paid.
2. If the assumption in 1 is correct, I believe that there should be two conditions for the payment to the translator:
a. Party B should deliver a “usable” product without any additional work on the part of Party A.
b. The delivered product should also not cause any financial loss to Party A.
3. When the translator delivered the Word file, it was defective because there was a color mismatch that is different from the source, which is a defective product.
4. Even though the translator eventually complied, I had already spent more than 30 minutes trying to persuade him to deliver what he agreed to do in the first place, which is a financial loss on my part.
If my reasoning is reasonable and since it is such a small amount, do I have enough reason to simply refuse payment since he refuses to give me an apology?

As I said, it is not just a matter of money given the small amount; it is more a matter about who is right. I know that this does not make me whole, but it is very hard for me to pay someone who has bullied me and refuses to give me an apology.

I would love to hear from all of you.
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Samuel Murray
Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 11:58
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
@Alex Aug 27, 2017

Alex Wang wrote:
Yes, the directions that I gave for the project could not be more clear because this is what I put in red in the third line of the project description:
Deliverables: bilingual translation file and clean Word file


As a matter of interest, did you specify (or imply) a specific CAT tool?

According to him, one of the reasons that he refused to comply was that it takes too much time to create a project using a CAT tool, and not every agency requires using a CAT tool.


I agree with the translator on both counts -- the process of creating a project in some modern CAT tools is very longwinded and effortsome, and it is almost not worth doing it for a small translation. That said, some agencies do require all translations to be done in the CAT tool, which means that in a 1-word or 2-word project it could take 10-100 times as long to create the project as doing the translation itself.

However, 300 words is not a short translation (relative to how long it takes to create a project in the CAT tool), so the issue is not that "it takes too long" but rather "it is too much bother".

Either way, you specified that you wanted a bilingual file, and so he should have delivered it, because he accepted the job, and one of the job requirements was a "bilingual translation file". Maybe he just forgot, but his pride prevents him from admitting it.

The outsourcer has every right to specify whatever requirement they want, no matter how ridiculous a translator may feel it is.


In your specifically mentioned case, I agree.

[Edited at 2017-08-27 21:53 GMT]


 
Samuel Murray
Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 11:58
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
@Alex II Aug 27, 2017

Alex Wang wrote:
1. Even though there is no written purchase contract between us, when the translator agrees to take a project based on the specified terms, the two parties (I as Party A and the German translator as Party B in this case) have implicitly entered a contract according to which the translator will be paid.


Yes.

2. ... I believe that there should be two conditions for the payment to the translator:
a. Party B should deliver a “usable” product without any additional work on the part of Party A.
b. The delivered product should also not cause any financial loss to Party A.


Contract law is not my strong point, but I have a feeling that it's not as simple as that.

It is quite common for architects, designers, translators etc to continue refining the end-product based on further comments by the client.

I have also heard that if the client points out a flaw in the delivery, and the service provider corrects the flaw in good time, the client still has to pay the full amount.

Also, I think the issue of "financial loss" relates more to material loss, and not to the calculated loss of wasted time. Time spent doing correspondence is a normal business expense. You can't invoice for it.

I think you can deduct money from the payment if you had to spend an unreasonable amount of time fixing the flaw yourself, but you can't deduct money for the time wasted during correspondence.


 
Frank Zou
Frank Zou  Identity Verified
China
Local time: 18:58
Member (2016)
Chinese to English
+ ...
Just move on Aug 27, 2017

Alex, Just move on. I think you are trapped and haunted here by a trashy person. Life is too short to be wasted on unworthy souls. Whether you pay him or not, whether you get an apology or not, your wound won't heal unless you move on.

 
Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT
Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 11:58
Member (2005)
English to Spanish
+ ...
Another case of "it is about principle"? Aug 28, 2017

Alex Wang wrote:
As all of you probably can tell, it is not a fight about money because the time that I have spent on this is worth a lot more than what I owe him. It is a fight about the feeling of pride. He has his pride, but I have mine as well. It is also very hard for me to let it go (...)

A sane business aproach calls for the maximum efficiency of your time, and you have already wasted many times the value of the unpaid invoice not only arguing with the translator, but also discussing the matter here.

However, if the feeling of pride is what really matters to you in life, you should definitely keep going, spend as many hours as needed, and use all possible legal means to obtain your apology. We all have priorities and all are respectable. But beware: Making pride the utmost priority can be expensive!


 
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Kevin Fulton
Kevin Fulton  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 06:58
German to English
Apologies are a social nicety ... Aug 28, 2017

... but not legally required in most instances (cases of potential libel, slander, etc. are the exceptions).
You're getting yourself worked up over a minor matter and letting the translator live inside your head.

Regarding specifying a CAT tool: in the US under most circumstances you cannot require a specific tool if the freelancer can produce a usable result using different software. In this case, a bilingual file in TMX format meets that requirement, if a bilingual file was
... See more
... but not legally required in most instances (cases of potential libel, slander, etc. are the exceptions).
You're getting yourself worked up over a minor matter and letting the translator live inside your head.

Regarding specifying a CAT tool: in the US under most circumstances you cannot require a specific tool if the freelancer can produce a usable result using different software. In this case, a bilingual file in TMX format meets that requirement, if a bilingual file was part of the job specification.
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Christopher Schröder
Christopher Schröder
United Kingdom
Member (2011)
Swedish to English
+ ...
[emoticon] Aug 28, 2017

Maija Cirule wrote:

... and just spit on him?


Is this a cultural thing?


 
Dan Lucas
Dan Lucas  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 10:58
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
Exactly Aug 28, 2017

Kevin Fulton wrote:
You're getting yourself worked up over a minor matter and letting the translator live inside your head.

My thoughts exactly.

You shouldn't be allowing others to dominate your thinking like this. Even if your version of events is accurate - and I suspect the other party would dispute that - you should still pay the guy, vow to never deal with him again, and move on.

It's understandable that you feel annoyed or offended, but dwelling on it will not help you in this particular case, and as a general rule it's not something that you should allow to become a habit. You're a businessman. This sort of unpleasantness will happen from time to time. You can't afford to be this fragile.

Dan


 
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