Hannah Geiger (X) Sep 1, 2012:

For all tramping enthusiasts, a recent article in Pozitivní Noviny
http://www.pozitivni-noviny.cz/cz/clanek-2012070086

Hannah Geiger (X) Jul 11, 2012:

ale vůbec ne, já jsem se tak dlouho učila být "politically correct" a psát "český" a "Čechy", že pak udělám chybu automaticky. Díky.

Vladimír Hoffman Jul 11, 2012:

Hannah Dobrý nápad, len malá oprava - československému:-). V trampingu ste boli jednoznačne prví, nie však jediní. To len pre historickú presnosť, neberte to prosím ako výron národoveckej pýchy:-))

Hannah Geiger (X) Jul 10, 2012:

My neznáme rozsah této výstavy, pouze Scott. Informoval nás ale o tom, že je jde o Eduarda Ingriše, který, mimo jiné, také složil velmi známou trampskou píseň, a dokonce i hudební doprovody k filmům podobného druhu.
Četla jsem, že se už od roku 2008 probírají rozsáhlými archivy.
Nechápu tedy, proč by nemohli věnovat část výstavy právě tomuto námětu, tak zajímavému a svým způsobem“ ironicky českému“. A věřím, že pokud se to už nestalo, tak by se některý z těch kurátorů mohl zcela vážně zamyslet, kdyby to Scott navrhl.
Ne, 38 stupňů tu už dnes není, já to opravdu myslím vážně. Nota bene, z úspěšných výstav také vznikjí úspěšné knihy........nebo catalogy

Vladimír Hoffman Jul 10, 2012:

Ďakujem, Pavel.

Pavel Lexa Jul 10, 2012:

So záujmom sledujem celú diskusiu. Nielen z nej, ale aj z mojich osobných skúseností vyplýva, že preložiť sa to do iného jazyka (pre ľudí, ktorí s ČS trampingom žiadnu osobnú skúsenosť nemajú)ani nedá. A čo sa nedá preložiť, (lebo aj to sa občas stáva, to treba vysvetliť. A podľa môjho názoru a mojich skúseností, ktoré začali už po 2. svetovej, to tu najlepšie vysvetľuje Vlado Hoffman. Klobúk dolu Vlado.

Maria Chmelarova Jul 10, 2012:

len pre zaujimavaost P. Hubka "What is Czech tramping"

wikipedia; ... Czech-specific blend of IDEAS taken from Scouting.

Vladimír Hoffman Jul 10, 2012:

Jiri Your solution seems to me very elegant, question is if conditions of the exhibit (graphic layout, agreed fonts) allows so. If yes, I agree with your suggestion.

Vladimír Hoffman Jul 10, 2012:

Maria Mimochodom, to nie je o generacnom rozdiele. Trampske hnutie je tu od 1. svetovej, len vy ste sa s nim (velmi pravdepodobne) nikdy nestretli. Odpoved potom hladate v slovnikoch písaných akademikmi a logicky prichádzate k nesprávnym záverom. Tramping pripomína táborenie alebo pešiu turistiku asi ako puma domácu micinku - obe sú to šelmy mačkovité, to je asi tak všetko. Mozete verit mne alebo verte internetovym zdrojom:
In Czechia and Slovakia, tramping (Czech: tramping, tremping, word borrowed from English) is a combined culture of hiking, backpacking, scouting, woodcraft, music, with the characteristic flavor of American culture, especially Wild West.

Vladimír Hoffman Jul 10, 2012:

Maria Nehnevajte sa, ale prave skutocnost ze som trampoval, stretaval sa s inymi trampami, cital trampsku literaturu a casopisy atd. ma celkom slusne kvalifikuje vyjadrovat sa k tomu. co to tramping v CZ ponati znamena. Niet nad osobnu skusenost:-)
Pokial niekto ignoruje osobitne prvky trampingu, suznenie a prirodou, westernove prvky, indianske prvky, zlatokopecke prvky, to vsetko vyjadrene vo zvykoch a dress code, tak ano, podla mna iba sedel za katedrou a skrabal sa za usami. Tramping je subkultura s urcitymi specifickymi prvkami a aj ked uznam, ze je to narocne prelozit do ineho kulturneho prostredia, pri vyklade (teda pri Slovniku cudzich slov) neodpustim ani ciarku.
Webky jasne ukazuju a popisuju, kto to je tramp, a turista to urcite nie je. Vy by ste sa urazili, keby vas niekto oznacil za trampa a pre trampov bola silna urazka (to myslim vazne), ked ich niekto pomenoval turisti. Mozno by ste si tie trampske stranky mali pozriet (staci vyguglovat tramping a obmedzit hladanie na CR, pripadne vyuzit linky, co sem dali ini), aby ste jasne uvideli, ze pesia turistika spojena s prespavanim pod hviezdami je len jednym (aj to nie nevyhnutnym) prvkom trampskej subkultury.

Jiri Lonsky Jul 10, 2012:

gee, now what: use tramping, but in bold italics I sat back, and followed this fascinating discussion. It is obvious that tramping has no connection to the English meanings of the word (bum, vagabond etc.) therefore using this word would mean to risk misunderstanding or bias in reader of the text. Yet the word itself was purposefully chosen by Czech "tramps", so it is not possible to ignore it, the very fact that it is English alludes to the Wild West and Gold Rush lore (at least in its Czech factual context). For that reason, I suggest keeping the word as is (tramping), and at first introduction explain its foundational conundrum. Then, while using the word in the selected graphically distinct form, offer the deeper explanation of tramping as historical phenomenon, or whatever else the purpose of the text is. This way, the reader will develop understanding of the particular use of this term, and the appropriate context, and will apply it whenever he or she encounters it later . I liked Peter Kedzior's suggestion "tramping" with the exception that use of quotation marks indicates ironical use of a term, or parody. To avoid this, I recommend using the word tramping in bold italics.
I have this suggestion for Scott.

Maria Chmelarova Jul 9, 2012:

Vladimir Skor ako sa pripajam do diskusie, najskor si vzdy precitam co sa rozvlacuje.
Len zato, ze ste trampovali to este nie je dokaz toho ze preklad vystihuje to, co tramp/ing znamena v povodnom jazyku a neskor v pozicanom tvare! Ak to nejaky akademik dal do slovnika, to este neznamena ze len sedel za katedrou a skrabal sa za usami, ako to najlepsie opisat.
Ak by ma niekto nazval ze som tramp, len zato ze mam batoh na chrbte a sem tam by som prespala pod holym nebom... , aj by som sa urazila.
Webky nam jasne ukazuju kto je a nie je tramp.
Mozno by nebolo na skodu dat dohromady novy slovnik cudzich slov a niektori z nas by sa aj pritom uzivili.
Navyse, treba si najskor precitat co napisal Scott E.
"....somebody who goes out to camp in various locations with friends, to enjoy nature, singing ....and roast špekacky...
nepripomina Vam to nahodou kampingovanie ?
Mne ano. Mozno je to preto, lebo je to generacny komplex, teda rozdiel. M.

Vladimír Hoffman Jul 9, 2012:

Maria Mimochodom, zrovna Veľký slovník cudzích slov by som ako referenciu pre slovo tramp nepoužíval, keď existuje nespočítane českých a slovenských linkov, ktoré tramping a jeho reálie podrobne popisujú (samozrejme, úplne inak ako pešiu turistiku).

Hannah Geiger (X) Jul 9, 2012:

I was playing around a bit with the "outdoor survival skills" (an interesting one, actually, anything from making fire to emergency shelter etc) or "wilderness survival skills" and came onto a rather fascinating article
http://www.pf.jcu.cz/stru/katedry/aj/doc/sbaas01-dancer.pdf

Vladimír Hoffman Jul 9, 2012:

Maria Mozno by ste si najprv mohli precitat diskusiu, kde sa tieto otazky dopodrobna rozoberaju. Napriklad ze trampi vysli zo skautskeho hnutia a sami sa povodne oznacovali ako "divoki skauti" Tramping cisto ako taborenie v prirode je, nehnevajte sa, uplny nezmysel. Pokial to niekto takto dal do slovniku, tak to musel byt akademik, co v zivote na ziadnom vandri ani potlachu nebol a vlastne ani ziadneho trampa nevidel. Na to Vam ako byvaly tramp (co v ziadnom pripade neznamena pesi turista!) mozem prisahat. Viac je skutocne v diskusii a v linkoch.

Maria Chmelarova Jul 9, 2012:

tramp, tramping (angl.) povodne v americkom prostredi tulak bez domova a bez staleho zamestnania (tooooooo bad ! ) - bad person, beggar, bum, vagabond.....prenieslo sa do nasich slovnikov ako - pesi turista, taboriaci v prirode ( zrejme pod stanom) (camping ) ......

tramping - (sport.)- taborenie v prirode
teda romantizovanie nam tu velmi nepomoze...
pozname scouting ale neviem co je to free scouting...? miesame jablka s pomarancami ...?

scouting - skauting ma celkom ine poslanie, je organizovane a ....viac na internete...

tramping -

Vladimír Hoffman Jul 9, 2012:

What about free scouting?

Vladimír Hoffman Jul 9, 2012:

Hannah Of course, I know that you do mean it well. We all do. And the last thing I want is to disciple you.
But I am "romanticing" intentionally. Tramping without romantic elements, without playing certain roles, without rituals and customs is not tramping. Tramps do not had to take long journeys and many of them spent weekends only on one place (osady). Tramping is neither sporting nor trekking, although it can include sporting or trekking activities.
Present condition and future of tramping movement is not relevant in this case. We are talking about the interwar Czechoslovak Republic, when tramping was thriving (Eduard Ingris was involved in the First Republic tramping movement). Neverthless, despite strong reducion after 1989 tramping still exists. Just look at web, there are tons of tramping sites, magazines, articles. I don't know if the tradition is still alive among young people (actually, I doubt about it), but I know people, who still have their camps and logs and visit them regularly.

As for hiking with explanation, there is one basic question - How you want to convene essential ideas of woodcraft movement and inspiration by World Wild West and Klondike Gold Rush?

Hannah Geiger (X) Jul 9, 2012:

Vladimír, I mean it well, so please do not get me wrong. I think that you are romanticizing it without being aware of it. The Czech "tramping "does not exist even in CR any more, or does it, I mean in the real sense of it. Please correct me if I am wrong. I gather that it really can't, due to the changing technology and a new way of life.
As to the language, we all know that our guide has to be the source language. Yet at this exhibition, a visitor may have a far greater understanding of the word, such as, for example 'hiking' with some brief explanation in parenthesis, he simply will get the drift of it, or am I wrong.

Some major sources write (known as "tramping" in NZ, CZ)

And Scott, don't forget you asked. (joke)

As for the "wild scouting" _ I saw it used for very high mountains, which you yourself had recently protested, and it also has another meaning, which is that of "searching for something in a vigorous manner"

Vladimír Hoffman Jul 9, 2012:

Scott Let's consider wild scouting. Maybe small explanation will be needed, but you can't get closer. Tramps had much more common with scouts than with any other group.

Vladimír Hoffman Jul 9, 2012:

Hannah The guys obviously are not tramps (neither in CZ nor in US meaning). No tramp worth of his name would consider and approach them as tramps.

Hannah Geiger (X) Jul 9, 2012:

Scott, "now what...." well, now you have to sit down and meditate over this one, preferably with a glass of....whatever
http://www.hobby.net.au/flex/hiking-trekking-backpacking-tra...

Gerry Vickers Jul 9, 2012:

Water, water, everywhere, nor any drop to drink ...

Scott Evan Andrews (asker) Jul 9, 2012:

gee, now what?

Vladimír Hoffman Jul 8, 2012:

Hannah You both are right. You are referring to backpacking in the nature, Gerry is talking about backpackers as travellers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backpacking_(travel)
The first could by translated as (vysokohorská) turistika, the second as (a favorite word of Czech prezident:-)) baťúžkári.
Neither can be used for tramping.

Hannah Geiger (X) Jul 8, 2012:

I actually rather like it. This gentleman in question passed away in 1991, was in his eighties, lived for the most part of his life in the United States, and, I believe, the word backpacking was
used within the context which I see here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backpacking_(wilderness)
if the whole article does not show, try to click on "backpacking" in the blue heading of the note, and it will come up in full and with pictures
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backpacking_(wilderness)

Gerry Vickers Jul 8, 2012:

Backpacker I'm not sure about backpacking - in the modern sense this means American/Australian twenty-somethings with their overpriced Eurail passes trying to see as many places as possible from the inside of a train in the space of two weeks armed with a Lonely Planet guide and an iPhone. Where there isn't a train compartment to crash in, they will stay in an overpriced 'backpackers hostel'. That is what the term conjures up to me, as an English speaker.

Vladimír Hoffman Jul 8, 2012:

Scott Thanks, but the ship already passed. Now I am the one, who is "zalezly pred teplem":-) Some things can (and should) be done only when a man is young.

Scott Evan Andrews (asker) Jul 8, 2012:

>VH treba je na miste a cas svolat trampy z Vase stare gardy a jit na cundr letos v lete ako pocasi dovoluje, oni su len zalezly pred teplem...cucuriedky a marholy su v sezone

Vladimír Hoffman Jul 8, 2012:

Thank you, Scott, for a possibility to recall my crazy young years:-)

Vladimír Hoffman Jul 8, 2012:

2 Hannah Ono su spomienky a spomienky, ako sa to zas vezme. Som si teraz pri hladani pocital nieco o trampingu, sportovom duchu, druznom kamaradstve, posvatnom plameni, ale ako obcas smadna partia trampov dokazala kompletne "vypit" mensiu dedinsku hospodu, to tam nikdo nenapise!:-)))

Scott Evan Andrews (asker) Jul 8, 2012:

wow thanks VH and to all of you for your invested time in this interesting topic, Hannah thanks for that very interesting Wiki too. This is one of those important things, Zikmund and Hanzelka exhibits to be displayed on panels in the museum in renovated bldgs. 14/15 in Zlin for years to come, so it has to be just exactly perfect, I don't have much room for explanations Vlado, but point taken, so I'll get with the curator with all these great Proz expert ideas...and maybe offer variations, of course here I've got to choose one :)

Vladimír Hoffman Jul 8, 2012:

Hannah, Pravda, som "cez styridsat" a mozno som aj trochu "chytry", ale ako sa to dalo zistit z textov, co som sem napisal?:-)) Zas som to nemyslel tak, ze pamatam Boba Hurikana osobne (zomrel tusim niekedy zaciatkom 60-tych, to som bol este na hubách):-)))

Hannah Geiger (X) Jul 8, 2012:

Zajímavosti z Wikipedie http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czech_tramping
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tramping

Hannah Geiger (X) Jul 8, 2012:

Vladimire, tady je těch "přes čtyřicet" opravdu hodně, takže vítejte mezi stařešiny, více si pamatujeme, což je snad fajn, ne? Ti "chytří" (a těch je tu taky hodně) to pouze ocení....

Vladimír Hoffman Jul 8, 2012:

Celkom potesujuce, vsetko co som sem napisal bolo len tak z hlavy, podla spomienok, a ako to vyzera, pamat mi este celkom sluzi:-)
http://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tramping

Vladimír Hoffman Jul 8, 2012:

2 Scott I personally thing that as the text is to be a description of museum exhibit, it could be advisable to use word tramping and supplement an explanation of the term. In many documents, it could be unsuitable, deterriorate readability, cloud clarity, but especially to this type of text, which is descriptive and explanatory by itself, an additional explanation could fit well.
Moreover, IMO, we as translators are expected to translate MEANING, not words. If there doesnt exist word in target language that would be equivalent to a word in source language, than description is imo MUCH better than word with partially different meaning. Backpaking (or hiking, trekking, rumbling etc.) misses very essential elements of CZ tramping, while US/UK meaning of tramping is very different from meaning of the CZ word. Therefore, I would use tramping and explain the unique term.

Vladimír Hoffman Jul 8, 2012:

2 Jiri In re Bob Dylan and Beast - Sorry, but except for general appreciation of free life, it has nothing common with tramping. Tramps never were hippies and never wanted to change the world. They only wanted to spend their free time in nature or with travelling. Plus, there were specific sub-cultural aspects, like influence of Wild Wide West, Indians and Klondike Gold Rush manifested in "dress code" and customs. Basically, tramps were wild scouts:-).

Vladimír Hoffman Jul 8, 2012:

2 Jiri You came to partially correct conclusions, but IMO from incorrect basics. Tramps as subculture (and it is essential to recognize that tramping was a subculture to a degree never reached by backpackers) were intuitively anti-establishmentarian and egalitarian. And, being mostly composed of working youth from lower social classes, they tended to be more "leftish". However, they were principally non-political (again, as a sub-culture, not as individuls) and romantic aspect was very essential from the very beginning. Tramping originated from scouting and the first tramps were people who liked romantic aspects of scouting, but disliked its organization. I read books written by Bob Hurikán (Huriccan) , the First Republic's tramp, traveller and writter, where it is quite obvious. And some elements of scouting origin (like flags) were still present in old tramping. Word tramping is probably taken from Jack London (as Scott correctly mentions, there is the London's story Lady and Tramp), but, for example (and unlike tramps of London's stories), old tramps never travelled as black passengers on freight trains.

Jiri Lonsky Jul 8, 2012:

Re: roaming Also the song "Like a rolling stone" comes to mind. Why not pick something up from Bob Dylan, or the Beats? "Tramping", even it its Czech meaning, was sort of their style

Hannah Geiger (X) Jul 8, 2012:

Scott, ...there is a British program running in the US on a public channel, called Globe Trekking, it is about young people going around the world (with a backpack), sleeping in very cheep hostels in exotic remote places, etc. , but it is still the backpacking, basically....

Jiri Lonsky Jul 8, 2012:

Yes, the social outcast stigma is a big problem in translating this term. However, it is necessary to realize, that the original word was adopted into Czech for the reason that it was "declase", and was used somehow politically, in an effort of the young, moslty city people of working class, against the hypocritical establishment "paďouři". The romantic sense of tramping developed IMO accordingly, and later prevailed in defining the term over its original political overtones. It may be necessary to introduce a single term that would fit this romantic, nature and primitive life espousing sense, explain it, and then use it as a term.

Scott Evan Andrews (asker) Jul 8, 2012:

again wise words VH, Hannah's right too, btw canines without homes are called tramps too...(e.g. Lady and the Tramp)

Scott Evan Andrews (asker) Jul 8, 2012:

this is for a museum exhibit specifically regarding Eduard Ingris (a great man by the way)...and it's gonna be hanging there a long time...guests will mainly not be from NZ, and secondly, I like the term backpacking, but it is like calling chicken parmesan a schnitzel, it's not getting everything that we know from our "cundrovani"...the tuzemak, the pastiky, the way Czechs Moravians, Silesians and Slovaks can all sing so many songs along together so nicely...we don't do that much in USA, even if backpacking...there's that element missing.

Hannah Geiger (X) Jul 8, 2012:

Vladimir, you are right, (and nicely rendered), as in the Sinatra song, a "tramp" used for a woman is actually a 'loose woman", or at least one who is "not a lady", and for a man probably an unshaven homeless person in need of a bath....

Vladimír Hoffman Jul 8, 2012:

Scott In Czechia and Slovakia, tramping (Czech: tramping, tremping, word borrowed from English) is a combined culture of hiking, backpacking, scouting, woodcraft, music, with the characteristic flavor of American culture, especially Wild West.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiking

Now find a single word (other than tramping) to describe it.:-)

Vladimír Hoffman Jul 8, 2012:

Scott By the way, tramping can be also mentioned in a positive way:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tramping

But it is still backpacking in essence, not Czechoslovak "tramping".

Vladimír Hoffman Jul 8, 2012:

Pavel To vies, spomenul som si na mlade roky:-)

Scott Evan Andrews (asker) Jul 8, 2012:

souhlas Pavle :)

Hannah Geiger (X) Jul 8, 2012:

trekking and hiking are, IMHO, often put into the same category with backpacing

Pavel Lexa Jul 8, 2012:

Vlado, pekne si to napísal.

Vladimír Hoffman Jul 8, 2012:

Very tricky question. I remember that once, in my "tramping" years, I talked with an English woman in a train and Im proudly informed her that I was a tramp. She almost jumped of running train.:-))
There is no correct single English word - scouts are organized ("tramps" hate organizing), turists rarely sleep under stars, tramps in English-speaking countries are vagabounds.
Czech and Slovak "tramping" is unique. Old tramps were inspired by (romanticized) world of Jack London, Wild Wild West, Ernerst Thomson Setton and other authors glorifying free life and nature. Tramping could be VERY roughly described as unorganized travelling with sleeping under stars, mostly, but not only, in the nature.