Alison MacG Oct 20, 2017:

(cont) Perhaps also worth considering in the case of hand sanitisers (and perhaps other products too) are things like with no lingering scent/fragrance/odour/smell, leaves no scent/odour, etc.

CleanSmart has no added fragrance, just a light, natural scent with no lingering odors.
https://store.schoolspecialty.com/OA_HTML/ibeCCtpItmDspRte.j...

Earth Science - Fragrance-Free Shampoo
It isn't odor-free, but there is no lingering fragrance and that's what I needed.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Earth-Science-Fragrance-Free-Shampo...

In practice, the terms seem to be used to mean whatever the manufacturer wants them to mean and I agree with the others that it is all very subjective. If your particular aversion is to citrus scents, then a duftneutral product with a light citrus scent will not feel very duftneutral to you.

Alison MacG Oct 20, 2017:

More thoughts Perhaps the safest option may be to use essentially the definition (with) no noticeable scent in cases where it is used as a stand-alone, general term (suitable both for products containing masking fragrances to create a “neutral” scent and for products having only a light scent originating solely from their ingredients) and something along the lines of (with) no added fragrance (as opposed to fragrance-free), just an inherent/light/natural citrus scent in cases where it needs to be made clear that the product does have an inherent scent due to its ingredients, but a scent that is not considered strong enough to require the use of a masking fragrance.

Chambers actually offers as one definition of neutral: with no noticeable smell
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=pz2ORay2HWoC&pg=PA1089&d...

Herbmione Granger Oct 19, 2017:

Change the "green" to "white" for "neutral." I think that's what I was thinking. Anyway, this is all guesswork. The meaning of "leichter Citrusduft" is clear.

Herbmione Granger Oct 19, 2017:

I agree that it's unconventional to see "duftneutral" and "_duft" for the same product, but it doesn't create that much cognitive dissonance to me. My interpretation (with little context) is: The odor emitted should be perceived as "green." At times or to sensitive people, it can be perceived as "lemony." I expect that Elli knows a lot more about marketing than I do.

Björn Vrooman Oct 19, 2017:

I apologize; repost--quoted the wrong part from the German.

However, this is where the second question needs to be asked.

B) Why do they add "leichter Zitrusduft"?
Quite honestly, I have no clue. This shouldn't be there. From Alison's link again: "Mit diesen sollen meist unangenehme Gerüche bestimmter anderer Inhaltsstoffe überdeckt bzw. neutralisiert werden. Damit soll der Gesamteindruck des Produktes neutral erscheinen."

Hence, I also agree with both of you not to call it "unscented" in this(!) case. There aren't any legal implications, but it's best not to use it. From the National Law Review:
"But like the term 'all natural,' 'unscented' has no official definition. And this is where the problem arises."
https://www.natlawreview.com/article/unscented-new-all-natur...

They don't see much of a chance for class action suits, but they recommend that you avoid it if it isn't "worth the risk." Not sure what to think of this, considering everyone can sue over anything.

In any case, I also agree with discreet/mild/light for "leichter," etc.

The trouble is that the German sentence, as Phil rightly points out, doesn't make any sense!

Best

Björn Vrooman Oct 19, 2017:

Hello Elli and herbalchemist Now, I'm starting to see what I did wrong; I didn't specify what I was referring to.

This is basically a 2-for-1 question.

A) "What is duftneutral?"
Agree with both of you that it shouldn't be called "fragrance free." There is this explanation:
"Products with labels that contain the words 'fragrance free' or 'unscented' do not guarantee they do not contain fragrance chemicals, they imply that they have no perceptible odor. A product labeled 'unscented' may contain a masking fragrance."
https://web.utk.edu/~ehss/pdf/fsa.pdf

But:
"In some cases, products labeled 'unscented' contain fragrance not to create scent, but to mask a strong odor in the formula, according to the American Academy of Dermatology. [...] 'Fragrance-free,' on the other hand, can mean that no extra fragrances were added to change the product's naturally occurring aroma, although fragrant (and potentially irritating, but otherwise safe) ingredients might well be in the original formula.'"
http://livingpaleo.co/p/w/prevention.com/beauty/skin-care/tr...

Both authors agree on the definition of "unscented" and this is where I see a match when you look at Alison's link.

[continues]

Eleanore Strauss Oct 19, 2017:

@herbalchemist et al Please see my post. HOw about a discreet (light) neutralizing (neutralising) scent - not fragrance, as that would counteract the effect of the message.
@ Bjorn: No, you cannot say unscented if it has a light citrus scent.

Herbmione Granger Oct 19, 2017:

"Unscented" is not a suitable term for Julia's purpose IMO. It is likely that the aroma is the antibacterial agent, and it needs to be strong enough to kill/inhibit the microbes yet mild enough to not "knock out" the user (another balancing act).

Björn Vrooman Oct 19, 2017:

Don't get me wrong; if we were talking about a lotion, I'd have agreed immediately. But this is a hand sanitiser; it's a bit like the wipes example--I would expect both of these products not to have "harsh fragrances" to begin with; bad enough they have any at all (allergies and what not). That's why I'd prefer "unscented" over anything else here, so you don't have to worry it's going to clash with the fragrance from your lotion or your perfume/cologne or something if this is understandable (even if these were mild fragrances, it could happen).

Best wishes

Herbmione Granger Oct 19, 2017:

I agree that it is not "fragrance-free" and that Alison provided a good reference.

Björn Vrooman Oct 19, 2017:

@herbalchemist "a balancing act between subjective and objective"

Don't disagree. I merely used the carbon emission example to point out that this isn't about a product that is "fragrance free" - that doesn't make any sense considering what Alison posted.

Here's the FDA; I don't think they're using this as some kind of USP; it's a simple description:
"Wipes are sometimes labeled as scented, unscented, or fragrance-free. FDA doesn’t have regulations governing the use of these terms. But cosmetic labeling is required to be truthful and not misleading.

Typically, the word 'unscented' on a cosmetic label means that the product doesn’t have a noticeable scent. But it may actually contain 'masking' fragrance ingredients to hide the smell of ingredients whose scent may be unpleasant.

However, because the term 'fragrance' refers to specific kinds of ingredients, cosmetics labeled as 'fragrance free' should not contain any added fragrance ingredients."
https://www.fda.gov/cosmetics/productsingredients/products/u...

See what I put in italics; this is pretty much an exact match to Alison's link in German.

Best

Herbmione Granger Oct 19, 2017:

Limonene A "citrus scent" would be partly created by D-limonene, which is well known for its antibacterial activity at the proper concentration. ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18072821

Herbmione Granger Oct 19, 2017:

unscented (citrus scented) Tricky, because this is a balancing act between subjective and objective, which is why this is indeed "up my alley." Carbon emission is mainly objective, so it's not a good reference point IMO. I think the "neutral" here is a balance, though, as in "nothing stands out."

Björn Vrooman Oct 19, 2017:

Just for comparison The terms "carbon neutrality" or "climate neutral" (same in German) don't say your business isn't emitting any carbon dioxide. It isn't a contradiction in terms either. It refers to your "energy balance" being a net zero one. How you get there is up to you.

Just have a look at Alison's post: "Mit diesen sollen meist unangenehme Gerüche bestimmter anderer Inhaltsstoffe überdeckt bzw. neutralisiert werden."

@Elli
This here seems to contradict what you said (or maybe I'm reading it wrong):
"'When a product is "unscented," it means it doesn’t have a detectable odor or scent,' Dr. Mammone clarified. So if scented oils like rose oil and lavender oil, which both have strong odors, are added to a product as active ingredients (as opposed to being added to mask smells), the product can still be labeled as 'fragrance-free.' The FDA only loosely regulates the labeling for 'fragrance-free' items and doesn’t regulate the term 'unscented' at all."
https://www.thecut.com/2013/11/guide-to-living-life-unscente...

"unscented" should be the way to go here, IMO; a UK supplier of hand sanitisers:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Serenity-Hospital-Antibacterial-San...

Herbmione Granger Oct 18, 2017:

mild fragrance Something like what Elli wrote. I expect that this is akin to 'geschmacksneutral'. Something pleasant and not 'fade'.

Alison MacG Oct 18, 2017:

Some definitions in German IKW Glossar zu Düften
Duftneutral
Ein kosmetisches Mittel, das als duftneutral bezeichnet wird, kann Duftstoffe, Parfümöle oder ätherische Öle enthalten. Mit diesen sollen meist unangenehme Gerüche bestimmter anderer Inhaltsstoffe überdeckt bzw. neutralisiert werden. Damit soll der Gesamteindruck des Produktes neutral erscheinen. Allerdings muss in solchen Produkten nicht immer ein Duftstoff, Parfüm oder ätherisches Öl enthalten sein - eine Formulierung kann auch ohne diese Stoffe „duftneutral" sein.
Duftstofffrei oder parfumfrei/parfümfrei
Ein kosmetisches Mittel, das als duftstofffrei oder parfumfrei bzw. parfümfrei bezeichnet wird, ist frei von Duftstoffen oder Parfümölen oder sonstigen ätherischen Ölen, die dazu dienen, den Wohlgeruch in einer bestimmten Weise zu prägen. Im Zweifelsfall sollte ein Duftstoff-Allergiker an Hand der jeweiligen INCI-Deklaration prüfen bzw. prüfen lassen, ob das Produkt Stoffe enthält, auf die er möglicherweise reagiert. Nicht duftstofffrei muss beispielsweise eine Formulierung sein, die die Bezeichnung "duftneutral" trägt.
http://www.ikw.org/schoenheitspflege/themen/wissenswertes/gl...

Eleanore Strauss Oct 18, 2017:

Discreet fragrance, subdued fragrance? Unscented came to mind first. That would make the most sense. Given the additional detail of a light citrus scent, I would imagine that it is trying to communicate that the scent is discreet and not overpowering, as many products are today. Legally, it is not permissible (at least here in the US) to say fragrance free if there is a lemon scent. This is especially so since so many people have allergies or other adverse reactions to fragrance. Neutral fragrance sounds kind of wishy-washy to me. Hope this helps