| Stranica u temi: < [1 2 3 4 5 6] > | Kudoz abuse Postavljač teme: Timothy Barton
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| 10 seconds of Google fame | Dec 30, 2011 |
Ty Kendall wrote:
To some extent, you have a point...there are grounds to believe the translator in question is not entirely without merit. (The 15WWAs for example).
However, I do not believe any such "witch hunt" has taken place.
"witch hunt
noun
an intensive effort to discover and expose disloyalty, subversion, dishonesty, or the like, usually based on slight, doubtful, or irrelevant evidence."
In this case, (unfortunately) the preponderance of evidence (on KudoZ) is anything but "slight, doubtful or irrelevant".
As others have pointed out, what offends them is not the sheer number of questions - which is bad enough - but the fact that so many of them are so easily answered and should not be asked by someone who calls themselves a "professional" translator. If someone asks a question which can be answered using a dictionary, or 10 seconds on Google, then people are going to question the salt of the asker in question. If this person then asks countless questions of this type, then people will do more than question, they will despair - which is clearly what translators in the language pair in question are doing. I can't blame them for that...and engaging in some harmless banter, which names no names is hardly a witch hunt.
The fact that the person has not been named is quite irrelevant as there is enough info on here for the person to be identified ... in less than 10 seconds. Makes this thread start to look like a playground scuffle with folk whinging behind the bike sheds.
| | | | Ty Kendall 
Ujedinjeno Kraljevstvo
Local time: 05:13
hebrejski na engleski
| A few points... | Dec 30, 2011 |
1. You won't find any identifying details in my posts.
2. Aren't the forums there to vent?
| | | | Ty Kendall
Ujedinjeno Kraljevstvo
Local time: 05:13
hebrejski na engleski
| Following on.... | Dec 30, 2011 |
From what I was saying about filtering not being a satisfactory solution, in a similar thread, another translator said this:
IMO, the filtering feature would be more effective if the affected parties (filtrates) were informed that/why they're being filtered, by how many people, and maybe even by whom.
Most of the filtrates probably don't even realise they're doing anything wrong.
The filter doesn't solve anything. It just hides the problem from those who don't want to see it.
Perhaps this is why people on here have felt the need to vent?
| | | | | Problem or not? | Dec 30, 2011 |
While I agree entirely that filtering merely hides the problem (and only in part, since it does nothing to prevent the adverse effect of the clutter when running searches and retrieving past kudoz entries), the other point is that there are people who do not see a problem, full stop.
I am usually very much in the live-and-let-live school. Until, that is, the actions of one individual or group start to adversely affect other individuals or groups not directly involved.
... See more While I agree entirely that filtering merely hides the problem (and only in part, since it does nothing to prevent the adverse effect of the clutter when running searches and retrieving past kudoz entries), the other point is that there are people who do not see a problem, full stop.
I am usually very much in the live-and-let-live school. Until, that is, the actions of one individual or group start to adversely affect other individuals or groups not directly involved.
The perceived negative impacts of behaviour of the kind discussed here have been thrashed out many a-time. With the possible exception of the site traffic angle, I have yet to see a convincing argument as to how such behaviour has a positive benefit for those not directly involved. And yet I think we need to see either some positive arguments, to counterbalance the negative, or some arguments/evidence that the claimed negative effects do not exist.
Otherwise it is true that all we have is a fairly infantile "there's a problem with...." versus "no there isn't" schoolyard-type situation. Discussion around kudoz always seems to get fairly heated for some reason, and the trouble is, from where I'm stting, those who claim there is a problem are providing fairly comprehensive evidence of their perception as to why there is a problem (in amongst the joshing), and the only response is basically "no there isn't" which is, as Monty Python illustrated, no way to conduct an argument
So what I'd like to see is either some reasons proposed as to why behaviour of the kind under discussion is in fact of overall benefit (by way of a counterbalance to the perceived negative effects) or some argument as to why the perceived negative effects are in fact no such thing. ▲ Collapse
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| Professional site for translators? | Dec 30, 2011 |
Regardless of how site members/users view the tone of some of the comments in this thread, I would have thought that the powers that be at proz.com, which states that it is a "professional resource for those who work with language" (my underlining) would have been keen not to encourage (albeit passively) members/users to act in what is effectively an unprofessional manner by accepting, on a number of occasions, jobs which are outside their areas of expertise and/or qualified language comb... See more Regardless of how site members/users view the tone of some of the comments in this thread, I would have thought that the powers that be at proz.com, which states that it is a "professional resource for those who work with language" (my underlining) would have been keen not to encourage (albeit passively) members/users to act in what is effectively an unprofessional manner by accepting, on a number of occasions, jobs which are outside their areas of expertise and/or qualified language combinations.
IMHO, aiding and abetting this behaviour, through its KudoZ rules, is only helping to damage how the translation industry is viewed by "outsiders", because such members/users, despite posting numerous KudoZ questions on the same job, will, in all likelihood, still end up producing a poor translation on such jobs when the professional behaviour of such members/uers should have been not to accept the job in the first place.
In the thread to which I linked on the first page of this thread, I put forward some suggestions regarding how KudoZ rules might be changed to make such "abuse" a lot more difficult and I am aware that others have also made suggestions on this issue in the past. I would welcome other suggestions from anyone in the hope that the site's management might at least consider looking at this issue in the light of the fact that this "abuse" is failing to show translators off in a professional light.
[Edited at 2011-12-30 12:46 GMT]
[Edited at 2011-12-30 12:48 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Rob Grayson
Ujedinjeno Kraljevstvo
Local time: 05:13
francuski na engleski
| When are people going to realise? | Dec 30, 2011 |
Paul Stevens wrote:
Regardless of how site members/users view the tone of some of the comments in this thread, I would have thought that the powers that be at proz.com, which states that it is a "professional resource for those who work with language" (my underlining) would have been keen not to encourage (albeit passively) members/users to act in what is effectively an unprofessional manner by accepting, on a number of occasions, jobs which are outside their areas of expertise and/or qualified language combinations.
For me, this is the nub of the issue, and is what I was alluding to in my previous post entitled "Words and figures do not agree…". Proz still makes an explicit claim to professionalism, but its behaviour, and behaviour it condones among KudoZ askers, belies this claim. I can only assume that the powers that be made a decision at some point that maximising income in the short term is more important that upholding and promoting professional standards (an ultimately short-sighted decision in my opinion). Unfortunately, I believe there is virtually zero chance of getting proz to change its policy at this point. It just bugs me that they still pretend to value professionalism while doing very little to promote it. Some would call that hypocrisy.
| | | | Ty Kendall
Ujedinjeno Kraljevstvo
Local time: 05:13
hebrejski na engleski
| Another angle... | Dec 30, 2011 |
I agree there's definitely a professional issue here. ProZ.com basics includes a subtitle "Hire language professionals, so you might expect the powers that be to ensure that the people on here actually are professionals (or at the very least that they act like professionals).
In addition, site rule #6 could potentially cater for this type of scenario:
http://www.proz.com/siterules/general/6#6
For convenience:
6. Misrepresentation and fraud are forbidden. It is possible to use ProZ.com without disclosing your name. However, impersonating others, using assumed identities, or otherwise attempting to deceive others to any degree will not be tolerated.
If someone is claiming (and actively advertising) knowledge and expertise way beyond their actual abilities,(and then their actions subsequently demonstrate this discrepancy*) then surely this is misrepresentation, if not out and out fraud...and as others have pointed out, has a detrimental effect on the "professional" claims/credentials of this site.
*the discrepancy between claimed knowledge and expertise and actual ignorance demostrated through endless and relentless kudoz questions which reveal the true picture
[Edited at 2011-12-30 14:29 GMT]
| | | | Rob Grayson
Ujedinjeno Kraljevstvo
Local time: 05:13
francuski na engleski
| Not to mention false claims to native ability | Dec 30, 2011 |
Ty Kendall wrote:
If someone is claiming (and actively advertising) knowledge and expertise way beyond their actual abilities, then surely this is misrepresentation, if not out and out fraud...and as others have pointed out, has a detrimental effect on the "professional" claims/credentials of this site.
Surely the most blatant misrepresentation that goes on here, and has, indeed, become all too common in recent years, is askers claiming in their profiles to be native speakers of English when it is clear to anyone that this is not the case. (I am working on the understanding that a native speaker is someone who grew up speaking the language, and categorically not someone who considers themselves to be of native proficiency.)
Funnily enough, there is often a significant overlap between those who misleadingly claim such status and those who post streams of basic questions…
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Kim Metzger
Meksiko
Local time: 23:13
njemački na engleski
| No witch hunt, my friend | Dec 30, 2011 |
On 29 Dec Siegfried Armbruster wrote:
In my opinion you guys should stop the witch-hunt. I would rather use the services of a translator who asks a lot of questions, has a background of being a published author and 15 WWA entries than any of the group of holier-than-thou witch hunters.
You might not agree with what this person is doing, but there is a mechanism to filter her. Use it, but stop the wailing - in my opinion it is just disgusting.
http://www.proz.com/forum/kudoz/214906-kudoz_abuse-page3.html
On 8 Aug 2010 Siegfried Armbruster wrote:
However a 2nd trend is that every 5th-grader with a German Shepherd or access to Google Translate seems to start translating clinical trial texts or texts about nuclear power plants from English into German or other languages. These people have no understanding of the topic they translate and these people are at least as dangerous to the professional translators as agencies paying peanuts.
It is easy to spot these people, they normally have an empty profile, not answered any questions and they always shoot series of questions which to everybody with even the most minimum knowledge in the area are dead easy to answer.
Independent of the Proz rules I have been voting these questions as being non-pro and from time to time I still do it. It is my way of telling the asker "in my opinion you should not have accepted this document".
http://www.proz.com/forum/kudoz/162920-voters_for_pro_non_pro_should_also_provide_an_answer_or_peer_comment-page2.html
Hello Siegfried, you've always been a man after my own heart. So I was surprised to see your latest posting on this subject. I haven't been annoyed by the translator under discussion here either because I normally don't visit Spanish, Italian and French KudoZ questions. But I think you would be safe to assume that our colleagues aren't on a witch hunt here and that you would be on the same page with them if she had been frequenting German/English KudoZ for the past several years with a similar barrage of questions, say for translations in the medical field into German.
| | | | Ty Kendall
Ujedinjeno Kraljevstvo
Local time: 05:13
hebrejski na engleski
| Like a plague... | Dec 30, 2011 |
This is indeed a worryingly widespread phenomenon, especially (although by no means restricted to) my language pair.
I have no problem with someone claiming "native-like" proficiency. Surely this is the apex of second language acquisition, something which most if not all students of language aspire to, but to claim "native" status is an equal misrepresentation in my opinion. (True bilinguals are of course an exception, yet even many of those consider one language to be stronger than... See more This is indeed a worryingly widespread phenomenon, especially (although by no means restricted to) my language pair.
I have no problem with someone claiming "native-like" proficiency. Surely this is the apex of second language acquisition, something which most if not all students of language aspire to, but to claim "native" status is an equal misrepresentation in my opinion. (True bilinguals are of course an exception, yet even many of those consider one language to be stronger than the other). This issue though is one which I don't see going away any time soon.
If rule 6 was applied to native language misrepresentation, then I suspect a sizeable proportion of all profiles on ProZ would vanish.
Edited for a typo
[Edited at 2011-12-30 14:41 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Robert Forstag
Sjedinjene Američke Države
Local time: 01:13
španjolski na engleski
+ ...
| The site ignores legitimate concerns at its own peril | Dec 30, 2011 |
I agree with Ty, Charlie, Dave, Paul, and Rob.
The following points are in order:
1.)
Ty is right that it is not just a matter of one individual abusing the Kudoz system. The deterioration of professional standards promoted by the site is not just a matter of allowing members to post 300 Kudoz queries a month (month after month). It is fundamentally rooted in the site’s happily accepting as users and paid members individuals who are, as I pointed out in my previ... See more I agree with Ty, Charlie, Dave, Paul, and Rob.
The following points are in order:
1.)
Ty is right that it is not just a matter of one individual abusing the Kudoz system. The deterioration of professional standards promoted by the site is not just a matter of allowing members to post 300 Kudoz queries a month (month after month). It is fundamentally rooted in the site’s happily accepting as users and paid members individuals who are, as I pointed out in my previous post, “rank beginners, wannabes, incompetents, non-translators, and even downright frauds.” A Jobs Board that serves more as a source of humor and derision than of interesting work offers, and an incessant advertising and marketing campaign that promotes the notion that the purchase of Trados can somehow magically turn the buyer into a professional translator, are also worthy of mention in this regard (let it be noted who is the focus of this thread is an enthusiastic user of this program).
2.)
The site management has repeatedly shown that it is has no interest in addressing the kinds of concerns aired in this and numerous other threads. The tactics generally employed by proz.com management to deal with flare-ups of this kind can be broken down into three categories: 1.) “quarantining”: (i.e., ignoring the matter until it peters out; apparently the preferred method in the present instance); 2.) “stonewalling”: dispatching one of the staff to issue a statement that says, in effect, “the status quo is best, and we don’t intend to change it, irrespective of the legitimacy of any argument advocating change” (this is repeated as often as necessary until the disgruntled and dissatisfied shut up); 3.) “killing by kindness”: this involves thanking individuals (either in the forums or in a personal e-mail) for their suggestions, promising to consider them carefully, and then doing nothing.
In the end, proz.com can be counted on to do what it perceives as good for the bottom line of proz.com. It is, after all, a business, and so there is nothing inherently wrong with this. But when it acts in ways that seem detrimental to many of us in its client base (i.e., professional translators) we ought to be clear about what is going on, and to make our displeasure known.
And the site should also consider the possibility that, if it continues to ignore our concerns, in the end its only constituency will be the “rank beginners, wannabes, incompetents, non-translators, and downright frauds.”
[Edited at 2011-12-30 16:15 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Yvonne Gallagher
Irska
Local time: 05:13
Član (2010)
francuski na engleski
+ ...
| "laughing all the way to the bank?" | Dec 30, 2011 |
quote]B D Finch wrote:
... She is allowed to claim on ProZ that she is a native speaker of English, which is belied by a glance at her writing. . ... I am amazed that respectable contributors to KudoZ still answer her questions and I think they should be ashamed of helping her continue this abuse...., Should we offer her of the flamboyant neckwear a link?Or simply laughing all the way to the bank?
Also, it should not be possible to omit a link to KudoZ activity on one'... See more quote]B D Finch wrote:
... She is allowed to claim on ProZ that she is a native speaker of English, which is belied by a glance at her writing. . ... I am amazed that respectable contributors to KudoZ still answer her questions and I think they should be ashamed of helping her continue this abuse...., Should we offer her of the flamboyant neckwear a link?Or simply laughing all the way to the bank?
Also, it should not be possible to omit a link to KudoZ activity on one's profile.
Nonetheless, KudoZ is still a useful resource and people should not be inhibited from asking a substantial number of questions if they need to, as it is not in itself a sign of incompetence. Somebody may have a large translation with a lot of specialised terminology; it is quite legitimate for them to read it through before translating, picking out the terminology they need help with. We cannot all be experts in the quantum mechanics of nit-picking equipment.
[Edited at 2011-12-29 13:00 GMT] [/quote]
I have just read all comments and can understand how annoyed many are at the perceived lack of professionalism of this asker. She does seem to be kept very busy with translations however, so is clearly getting a lot of work, in all her language pairs! However, I can only assume that she is doing this work at low rates (and most of the rates offered by outsourcers/agencies on Proz are shameful, certainly not high enough for anyone living in Europe).
I admit to being an "answerer" from time to time. However, most of the time there is almost a feeding frenzy to answer this asker's questions because she always closes promptly (usually choosing the best answer) and awards 4 points each time (whereas some others try to avoid awarding points or award a derisory point for an amount of research undertaken on their behalf). Yes, many of her questions are Non-Pro or could be answered by a quick look at a dictionary or a few minutes of Google searching. However, I assume it is because she hasn't the time, because of deadlines from taking on so much work, rather than laziness that makes her post questions rather than seek answers herself. At least she gives context and sometimes the questions can provoke discussion. There have been previous threads about askers not doing any searches themselves and she is certainly not alone in this regard. I don't think she is actually incompetent at all as she does seem to have many satisfied clients.
So, perhaps a stricter limit on the amount of questions it is permissible to ask should be imposed. Also, I agree that it should not be possible to hide Kudos activity. As previously argued, everyone can filter this asker and no one is forced to answer any questions. Personally, I like looking at questions (and answers) on Kudos and am probably a bit addicted to it. Kudos has replaced doing crosswords for me. I think perhaps people are getting a tad over-exercised about this asker and are actually a little insulting also. (Why bring neck attire into it?)
There are many on Proz with few or inadequate language qualifications and some even boast about the fact they "picked up the language" from living abroad so, while agreeing that I personally would be embarrassed to admit I only had GCSE level competence (or lack of) I think the more serious problem is that so many people claim to be "native" in several languages and/or translate into so many languages. The golden rule is to translate to ONE native language, not between source languages or OUT of one's native. (By the way, I have put several pairs, all into English, on my profile because I wanted access to more Kudos questions but only translate FROM French and Spanish, in both of which I am well-qualified).
So, yes, she is obviously over-extending herself in terms of amount and type of work she takes on but is she really "laughing all the way to the bank" thanks to help from answerers like myself? ▲ Collapse
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Rob Grayson
Ujedinjeno Kraljevstvo
Local time: 05:13
francuski na engleski
| How KudoZ specifically undermines the translation profession | Dec 30, 2011 |
gallagy2 wrote:
So, yes, she is obviously over-extending herself in terms of amount and type of work she takes on but is she really "laughing all the way to the bank" thanks to help from answerers like myself?
In a word, yes. This comes down to whether or not you believe that this person should be able to promote herself as a "professional translator" – which of course depends on how you want to define that term. If you believe, as I do, that to describe someone like that as a "professional" is an affront to serious translators, and that such a person should not be able to be in business as a translator, then you have to ask yourself how she is, in fact, able to make a living as a translator. My contention is that the existence of a forum like KudoZ, which not only allows but encourages people to slice up and post whole texts as questions, is a big part of why this kind of person is able to operate as a translator. If they had no recourse to this kind of forum, they would struggle mightily.
Also, the fact that the person in question appears to have many satisfied clients shouldn't mislead anyone. Agencies that pay bargain basement rates are, by nature, not bothered about quality. All it takes to satisfy them is to accept their rates and deliver the job on time.
| | | | Ty Kendall
Ujedinjeno Kraljevstvo
Local time: 05:13
hebrejski na engleski
| Off-topic: Gallagy2 | Dec 30, 2011 |
You might already know this but just wanted to offer a pointer (sorry If you do already know) but if you only want to display one language pair yet still get the kudoz questions for other language pairs, you can choose to hide the kudoz language pairs. When adding/editing your language pairs, if you choose "I only have an interest in this pair, do not show it in my profile" then you will still get the kudoz questions for them in your kudoz feed but they won't appear on your profile.
| | | | Ty Kendall
Ujedinjeno Kraljevstvo
Local time: 05:13
hebrejski na engleski
| In addition.... | Dec 30, 2011 |
Rob Grayson wrote:
Also, the fact that the person in question appears to have many satisfied clients shouldn't mislead anyone. Agencies that pay bargain basement rates are, by nature, not bothered about quality. All it takes to satisfy them is to accept their rates and deliver the job on time.
It's hard to place that much trust in the WWA system when it is simply not possible to post a negative entry.
For all we know, we are looking at a handful of positive entries in an ocean of dissatisfied clients.
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