| Stranica u temi: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7] > | English: Who needs the natives? Postavljač teme: IanW (X)
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James Calder 
Ujedinjeno Kraljevstvo
Local time: 07:43
španjolski na engleski
+ ...
| A little knowledge is a dangerous thing | Jun 2, 2004 |
I agree entirely with Ian's comments throughout the thread. The fact that English has become the world's language means that some non-native speakers with a poor or unsatisfactory grasp of its nuances and inconsistencies see fit to prognosticate on it and, even worse, translate into it. Have a look at some of the many hideously translated 'English' sites on the web and you'll see what I mean.
Before non-native speakers start wading in with their comments about how unfair I'm being, I migh... See more I agree entirely with Ian's comments throughout the thread. The fact that English has become the world's language means that some non-native speakers with a poor or unsatisfactory grasp of its nuances and inconsistencies see fit to prognosticate on it and, even worse, translate into it. Have a look at some of the many hideously translated 'English' sites on the web and you'll see what I mean.
Before non-native speakers start wading in with their comments about how unfair I'm being, I might add that I've lived in Spain for nearly five years now and have never had the gall to question a Spanish person's use of their own vernacular and even if I live here for another fifty five years I would still never do it. In English we have a word for it: respect. After all, when I go to the dentist I don't sit there telling him what to do. I know nothing about dentistry and people with a limited knowledge of a richly complex and fascinating language should follow suit.
[Edited at 2004-06-02 14:16] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Whit's a' this aboot?? | Jun 2, 2004 |
Ah dinna understand whit a' the fuss is aboot.
If the non natives want tae invent their ain English let them get on wi' it. An' guid riddance tae ra lottuv 'em!
Here's sumthin' tae think aboot while youse are a' cluckin' awa at each ither.
Scotlan his its ain legal system an it's ain edyication system tae.
It pit's mair heids per heid o' population intae universities than ony ither country in the whole wurld.
An that's why the BBC an' the English Parliament and Engl... See more Ah dinna understand whit a' the fuss is aboot.
If the non natives want tae invent their ain English let them get on wi' it. An' guid riddance tae ra lottuv 'em!
Here's sumthin' tae think aboot while youse are a' cluckin' awa at each ither.
Scotlan his its ain legal system an it's ain edyication system tae.
It pit's mair heids per heid o' population intae universities than ony ither country in the whole wurld.
An that's why the BBC an' the English Parliament and English Fitba is so fu' o Scottish poofs- they're jist better educated!!
An where's a' this expertise leadin' us?
English English is passe, out. Ful stoap. Cos ye nivir hear it spoken by anyone important.
So- the wan tae learn is Scottish English, right?
Ah agree wi' maist o whit Winnock says cos he's half Scots anyway (a' the Irish are- they jist don't like tae admit it).
Right Ian, ah've said ma piece- over tae you, big man. An' guid luck, yer goin' tae need it.
p.s.
A also agree wi' texty an jerrie cos the wan o them wis born There an the ither yin understands them- which is mair than a dae masel' sometimes.
[Edited at 2004-06-02 14:48]
[Edited at 2004-06-02 16:19] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Whit's a' this aboot?? | Jun 2, 2004 |
Priceless Gareth. Absolutely brilliant. Made my day for the next week or so.
| | | | | Linguists and grammar | Jun 2, 2004 |
I wasn't trying to offer a comprehensive definition of "linguist", but only to make it clear in what sense I originally used the term. I certainly wasn't trying to suggest that only academic linguists can be translators. Some of them study only their own language, after all.
To get back to descriptive versus prescriptive:
I am sure that many of us who have learned German at school will have been told that "wegen" takes the genitive. If we got this wrong in tests we woul... See more I wasn't trying to offer a comprehensive definition of "linguist", but only to make it clear in what sense I originally used the term. I certainly wasn't trying to suggest that only academic linguists can be translators. Some of them study only their own language, after all.
To get back to descriptive versus prescriptive:
I am sure that many of us who have learned German at school will have been told that "wegen" takes the genitive. If we got this wrong in tests we would have almost invariably "lost a mark".
Then what do we find? We get to Germany and discover that lots of people - and I mean lots - are using it with the dative.
Now do we go and tell them that they are making grammatical errors? Of course not! We make a mental note of it for further reference. To do anything else would simply be audacious.
The grammar books at some stage will have to note this change. In fact I think that the Duden has noted it as far as I can remember. I'm not off to check the Duden right now - haven't the time, but continental grammar books: prescriptive rather than descriptive??
Think again. ▲ Collapse
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Marc P (X)
Local time: 08:43
njemački na engleski
+ ...
Anne Gillard-Groddeck wrote:
I wasn't trying to offer a comprehensive definition of "linguist"
I know. It just struck me as a good example of variance in regional usage and register, since that was what we were talking about (among other things).
Marc
| | | | RobinB
Sjedinjene Američke Države
Local time: 01:43
njemački na engleski
| Native? speakers | Jun 2, 2004 |
I wish we could avoid the *we, native speakers of English* and *you, non-native speakers* as opposed sides
Giuliana,
Quite. Unfortunately, it's not as simple as that, and I'm afraid that the fault here lies largely with certain "non-native" speakers who are so desperate on insisting that their command of English is so perfect that they'll ride roughshod over the native speakers. As has already been pointed out, try doing that with the French! (or evidently the Romanians, too, although their language isn't as difficult as some pretend it to be).
Maybe we need to look a little more closely at what we mean by native and non-native. Traditionally, T&Is have classified their language ability into A, B, C, etc. languages, where A is held to be native or native-equivalent, with the latter generally held to mean that an educated native speaker couldn't tell the difference. B, C, etc. are the foreign languages in order of proficiency. The number of translators with "non-native" language abilities at A level is very, very small indeed.
In turn, though, a "native" command has nothing to do with nationality, ethnic origin, gender, sex (or species). For example, we have a new native English colleague who's actually Jordanian; born in CH, educated at English-speaking schools, English school exams, first and second degrees in the US. Plus many years' experience as a journalist working in an English-speaking environment. She has a brilliant and easy style that would put most Brits/Americans to shame. Plus fluent Arabic and German. And one of our former "German natives" was actually Turkish.
It seems to me that the problem that Ian's addressing, though, is that of translators with a B or C ability in English trying to pass themselves off as A language speakers. Which is not only annoying, but highly unprofessional.
Robin
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I agree with your observations 100 percent. I've long given up visiting the EN-EN forum. The last time I actually tried to read the questions and answers I got the feeling I was having a drink during Happy Hour at a JFK airport bar. You know... when everyone is trying out their English. Very very very interesting!
Jennifer
| | | | Katherine Zei
Kanada
Local time: 02:43
talijanski na engleski
+ ...
| Other bètes noirs | Jun 2, 2004 |
James Calder “stole” my reply title , and he is quite right: A bit of knowledge is quite dangerous; and whereas knowledge corrupts, absolute knowledge corrupts absolutely! (Especially since absolute knowledge doesn't exist...)
I find the most dangerous (for my patience, that is) Italians are the ones that know English well enough to speak and read it, but not enough to be able to form coherent, grammatically correc... See more James Calder “stole” my reply title, and he is quite right: A bit of knowledge is quite dangerous; and whereas knowledge corrupts, absolute knowledge corrupts absolutely! (Especially since absolute knowledge doesn't exist...)
I find the most dangerous (for my patience, that is) Italians are the ones that know English well enough to speak and read it, but not enough to be able to form coherent, grammatically correct sentences. They may or may not be linguists; they make many errors; and are adamantly dogmatic if you point out said errors!
This debate (I wouldn't say war, Ruxi: I feel debate is healthy, if not the point of these forums) spills over into many areas. The age-old lament of many an agency is that which regards clients who insist on employing incorrect usage because they think it's right: an agency then can't do much because it obviously doesn't want to bite the hand that feeds them.
It also spills over into the debate on what constitutes a native speaker, to which I will add my two euros (for inflation, not that my opinion has a higher value or anything), thus opening up yet another can of worms. (Isn’t it fun?)
A problem has arisen (arose?) in Canada (more within its cities) because of the high level of immigration Canada has sustained (enjoyed) over the past years. Because of its multicultural programs, many cities have become “cultural mosaics” in which children born in Canada from non-Canadian, non-English speaking parents have been encouraged to retain their original cultural identity, which as we all know begins with language. Therefore, they begin life speaking another language, and don’t pick up English until age five or so, when they begin kindergarten. Then, not only do they continue to speak the other language at home, but they also aren’t even taught grammar at school, since as we all know most US and Canadian schools eschew the teaching of grammar in favour of spelling.
The result? Many native-born "hyphenated" Canadians (Pakistani-Canadians, etc.), that can’t write their way out of a paper bag! However, those lucky few that have been born into this situation who also have chosen linguistics as their field of study are some of the only true bilinguals I’ve ever met, so please don’t flame me for pointing out this idiosyncrasy.
And that was a lovely bit of Scots, Gareth!! Very pertinent and illustrated a point tae boot!!
Ciao,
Katy ▲ Collapse
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IrinaGM
Sjedinjene Američke Države
Local time: 02:43
engleski na gruzijski
+ ...
| I agree with Ian, but... | Jun 2, 2004 |
Let me start with saying that I agree with Ian. I have also come across a lot of horrible grammar on ENG-ENG forum and some arrogance from both, native English speakers (basically saying I am right because I am a native Eng speaker) and from non-native speakers as well. But from my point of view, even though I am not a native English speaker, I try to help askers with Eng-Eng questions not because I want to prove that I am fluent in English, but because I want to help out and challenge myself ... See more Let me start with saying that I agree with Ian. I have also come across a lot of horrible grammar on ENG-ENG forum and some arrogance from both, native English speakers (basically saying I am right because I am a native Eng speaker) and from non-native speakers as well. But from my point of view, even though I am not a native English speaker, I try to help askers with Eng-Eng questions not because I want to prove that I am fluent in English, but because I want to help out and challenge myself as well. I do not get paid for this and let me assure you, I don't need Kudoz points either. Also, I only reply to questions that I think I am sure about.
As for translations, I do translate into English but all my English translations are edited by my native-English speaking spouse (I really don't want to get into how long I've been studying English, that I've worked, studied and lived in native English speaking environment since an early age, etc.)
As someone else mentioned before me, it's all about attitude. There always be arrogant people, we just need to learn how to deal with them. And I believe finger pointing and name calling is not the way.
Hope I have not offended anyone.
Peace,
Irina
[Edited at 2004-06-02 17:39] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Katherine Zei
Kanada
Local time: 02:43
talijanski na engleski
+ ...
| Where do you draw the line and other non sequitors | Jun 2, 2004 |
RobinB wrote:
Native English speakers are generally always willing to listen to non-natives, and if the latter are also subject area specialists, we'll take on board anything useful they can contribute. But I have to agree with Ian that this approach is often not reciprocated - and more's the pity.
Robin
Good point, Robin! I have benefitted from Italians using English in ways that at first glance don't seem correct due to my own language bias (but upon detailed inspection have found to be technically OK). However I have also been "corrected" by many Italians only to find that I have merely been more creative than they in my use of the Italian language.
So where do you draw the line? What can you say? What can't you say? What is English anyways? As was mentioned previously, it is a highly dynamic language, with many variants, idioms, influences, departures, and whatnot.
And just why is it that I am slightly disturbed by the recent Adidas ad campaign, "Impossible is Nothing"? It sounds backwards to me, but is it actually incorrect?
I remember the point at which I became aware of my language bias when I started out translating a few years ago, and promptly pitched it in my internal garbage bin, though I maintained a memory of it because that's perhaps what once made me a good writer (or so I was told). A world full of possibilities was opened in my direction, and I've been hearing the music of the planets in all forms of language ever since. So to do the devil's advocate thang, perhaps some of the native English speakers should think twice before rejecting the comment of a non-native English speaker, because maybe they can contribute to the dynamism of it all.
BTW no, I haven't been drinking CB!! It does sound like it though, doesn't it?
Ciao,
Katy
| | | | Kirill Semenov
Ukrajina
Local time: 09:43
Član (2004)
engleski na ruski
+ ...
| Dear Giuliana, | Jun 2, 2004 |
I totally agree, the main problem is the attitude. We are all natives at least in one language, and, for me personally,
remarks like "You're wrong, I'm Native, so I know better" are as arrogant and self-important as silly attempts of a non-native to answer back at a dozen of fair disagrees from natives. Also, I track Latin and Sanskrit pairs, and these are very friendly. I just hope that no "native Latin speaker" would appear there soon. ... See more I totally agree, the main problem is the attitude. We are all natives at least in one language, and, for me personally,
remarks like "You're wrong, I'm Native, so I know better" are as arrogant and self-important as silly attempts of a non-native to answer back at a dozen of fair disagrees from natives. Also, I track Latin and Sanskrit pairs, and these are very friendly. I just hope that no "native Latin speaker" would appear there soon.
Speaking of English (mono), first of all, I want to thank you, natives. You do not even know it, but you are my fellow teachers. I track English (mono) in read-only mode mostly. There are only rare times when I dare to propose an answer there, and I've even won some points, but I know it's not "my territory" and I do appreciate any your comment, positive or negative. I ask question in English (mono) when I do need explanations, and I try to take into account every opinion of native speakers -- not only answers but also their peer comments. So please do not get frustrated and do not leave the pair! My thanks to everyone. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Mats Wiman
Švedska
Local time: 08:43
Član (2000)
njemački na švedski
+ ...
U sjećanje | NO ONE should be condescending | Jun 2, 2004 |
Irina wrote:
As someone else (Giuliana Buscaglione) mentioned before me, it's all about attitude.
I have encountered and seen many comments from 'natives' that were definitely condescending.
I have posted the example "Sorry but...." ( http://www.proz.com/topic/20666?start=0 ) which was disputed by many (not by all, and on reflection admitted to be condescending).... See more Irina wrote:
As someone else (Giuliana Buscaglione) mentioned before me, it's all about attitude.
I have encountered and seen many comments from 'natives' that were definitely condescending.
I have posted the example "Sorry but...." ( http://www.proz.com/topic/20666?start=0 ) which was disputed by many (not by all, and on reflection admitted to be condescending).
The main point is the tone of the commentators. If they breathe the attitude "Don't intrude here, you non-native with your faulty knowledge of British English/US English/International English. We natives know better what is right!"
Do you? Not always! (even admitted by Ian).
I you, august superiors, know better: Show us (and above all the asker) by:
1. Telling the answerer WHAT is wrong, not THAT it is wrong.
2. Provide examples to prove your point.
3. Provide references that can be checked by all.
If you expect everybody to accept your answers simply because you are a native (however that is defined), you have misunderstood the meaning of term help (KudoZ) and should rightly refrain from answering but it would be a shame if you did.
We all appreciate FRIENDY native advice.
Mats
Disclaimer:
I am a moderator. Please therefore do not assume that my comment is authorized by the site owner or sanctioned by my fellow moderators. I am only commenting as a passionate KudoZ participant. ▲ Collapse
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Ruxi
njemački na rumunjski
+ ...
| I am sorry... | Jun 2, 2004 |
First of all I want to say I understood your point Ian, but still you and your English fellows who wrote here hurt the non-native persons.
As somebody said, it is a matter of attitude of both sides and a little modesty must always be.
No one is perfect. I do respect the native-speakers and don't argue with them. Still sometimes they also are wrong and they should not be offended when corrected by a non-native.
I do not know where the theory comes that Romanian is or not a diffi... See more First of all I want to say I understood your point Ian, but still you and your English fellows who wrote here hurt the non-native persons.
As somebody said, it is a matter of attitude of both sides and a little modesty must always be.
No one is perfect. I do respect the native-speakers and don't argue with them. Still sometimes they also are wrong and they should not be offended when corrected by a non-native.
I do not know where the theory comes that Romanian is or not a difficult language.
For an Italian, or French, or Spanish, it is not, because they have common roots.
Many non - Latin people found it difficult.
English is not a difficult language, at least the one we learn in schools. Grammar rules are only a few and besides you can hear it everywhere: films,music a.s.o, unlike other languages.
German is a very difficult language: difficult grammar with many forms of the verbs, long compound words a.s.o At least for us Romanian people, German is more difficult than English. I don't talk here about dialects of both languages.Besides, German language has also another sort of letters unlike English (Gotik).
Ian, what I meant with Shakespeare was not that he is a dialect, but the language he uses is an arhaic one, may be a dialect. It is more difficult to understand for a non-native English.
The colleague who wrote in Scottish English has given an example in my advantage.
I wanted to appologise for the tone of my text before and for the word "war". I was just defeating myself and the other non-native people.I felt hurt and Kiril was right too, there must not be two worlds now: the native and non-native speakers.
We are all native in at least a language and not native in others and we still translate.
Nobody is perfect, a translation can also not be perfect and who wants perfection? We need to communicate and that is the essence many forget here.
I would be glad as a Romanian native speaker if any of you could speak a little this language and would never criticise you. It is wonderful for anybody to know foreign languages, it is not easy and anyone who does the effort to learn them deserves respect.
So please, stop saying bad words against non-native English speakers.
Thank you for the nice explanation about children and their capability to learn languages. You are right.Still I insist it is a matter of talent and capability, as well for learning math, or informatics, or music, or sport. One needs some capability to learn foreign languages too.
It involves more things: musicality (hearing), memory, a special logic.
Some adults can still learn with success a foreign language, but a little more difficult, because the brain is a little tired and the memory full with other things.
I can tell you from my experience. I learn Italian now in order to communicate in my husband's native language and country. It is not easy, but possible and I succeed.
Let's make peace and respect each other,
Ruxi ▲ Collapse
| | | | Andy Watkinson
Španjolska
Local time: 08:43
Član
katalonski na engleski
+ ...
Mats:
I really think you ought to read before you leap.
You wrote:
"If you expect everybody to accept your answers simply because you are a native (however that is defined), you have misunderstood the meaning of term help (KudoZ) and should rightly refrain from answering but it would be a shame if you did."
Ian pointed out very clearly that he expects no-one to simply "take his word for it" because he's a native speaker.
Quite the opposite, h... See more Mats:
I really think you ought to read before you leap.
You wrote:
"If you expect everybody to accept your answers simply because you are a native (however that is defined), you have misunderstood the meaning of term help (KudoZ) and should rightly refrain from answering but it would be a shame if you did."
Ian pointed out very clearly that he expects no-one to simply "take his word for it" because he's a native speaker.
Quite the opposite, he was referring to the fact that an educated, "native" speaker (and a professional translator, to boot) of any language rightly feels more than a little put out when challenged or "corrected" over something which dozens of other educated "native" and professional peers agree with.
Simple as that.
Also: "I have encountered and seen many comments from 'natives' that were definitely condescending.
I have posted the example "Sorry but...." ( http://www.proz.com/topic/20666?start=0 ) which was disputed by many (not by all, and on reflection admitted to be condescending)."
Rather the contrary. On reflection, you changed your stance mid-stream. A wise decision.
Over the past year, Mats, I have been told that the following are "poor English", "not English" or simply weird.
"She was not a little proud of her achievements"
"The powers that be"
"Insofar as it is governed by......"
"Little did they know....."
Not English?????
Your habitual attitude, as summed up by the following:
"It is, I am sorry to say, often used by so-called 'native speakers' about suggestions from 'less native speakers' and destroys the friendly atmosphere uphold in so many language pairs.
You are perfectly entitled to think it (maybe generating a better answer) but not to say it.
ALL suggestions are to be welcomed!
Ugh!"
"Ugh" is exactly what I thought when I read the phrase "ALL suggestions are to be welcomed"
Sorry, Mats, they're not ALL welcome. This utopic, all answers are holy, kind of attitude is counterproductive.
Simply look at the above examples of "non-English" and convince me that these answers / comments are helpful to someone. Anyone.
Saludos,
Andy ▲ Collapse
| | | | IanW (X)
Local time: 08:43
njemački na engleski
+ ...
POKRETAČ TEME | Condescending indeed ... | Jun 2, 2004 |
A few comments on Mats' posting:
I have encountered and seen many comments from 'natives' that were definitely condescending.
Did I say that native speakers are never condescending? Sorry, but I have no control over my fellow native speakers. I’ll have a word at the next conference of deities …
I have posted the example "Sorry bu... See more A few comments on Mats' posting:
I have encountered and seen many comments from 'natives' that were definitely condescending.
Did I say that native speakers are never condescending? Sorry, but I have no control over my fellow native speakers. I’ll have a word at the next conference of deities …
I have posted the example "Sorry but...." ( http://www.proz.com/topic/20666?start=0 ) which was disputed by many (not by all, and on reflection admitted to be condescending).
If you look closely (i.e. read the words), you’ll see that most people said that it wasn’t condescending. In fact, most people found the idea quite ludicrous.
The main point is the tone of the commentators. If they breathe the attitude "Don't intrude here, you non-native with your faulty knowledge of British English/US English/International English. We natives know better what is right! Do you? Not always! (even admitted by Ian).
If you think that, as a Swedish native speaker, you can translate from German to English to the same level as a native English professional translator, that’s entirely your problem. The assumption that native speaker translators have a superior command than non-natives would appear to be common sense, rather than “condescension”. I’m perfectly able to admit when I am wrong and to accept criticism and tend to assume that other adults can do the same.
If you look back to the beginning of this posting and to Marcus’ attempt to focus on the main points, you will see that the “tone of the commentators” has got nothing to do with this issue. If someone suggests “4-rooms house”, I would not consider it condescending to say “No, it’s ‘4-room house’”. If I wrote "la croissant" on the French site and was told by a French colleague that it was "le croissant", I wouldn't consider that condescending either. And if you can’t even cope with that minimal level of criticism, my heart goes out to you.
I you, august superiors, know better: Show us (and above all the asker) by:
1. Telling the answerer WHAT is wrong, not THAT it is wrong.
Yes, we immortals do this (read my posting again)
2. Provide examples to prove your point.
This too (read my posting a third time)
3. Provide references that can be checked by all.
How do you suggest checking native speaker instinct? I think a chorus of support from fellow native speakers is as close as you can get.
We all appreciate FRIENDY native advice.
You mean friendly advice like “Mind your own business” (http://www.proz.com/topic/16839?start=0) ? Honestly, I find it hard to stomach that people (in this case a moderator!) who trundle out the same blinkered arguments and are downright rude to their colleagues should then feel compelled to tell other colleagues how to behave. There's a lot to be said for manners.
***
My thanks to everyone for all their input so far – all in all, a very interesting discussion.
[Edited at 2004-06-03 06:12]
[Edited at 2004-06-03 18:41] ▲ Collapse
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