| Stranica u temi: < [1 2] | Use of references when answering queries Postavljač teme: liz askew
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Can Altinbay 
Local time: 04:38
japanski na engleski
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U sjećanje | It isn't OK just because there are references | Sep 26, 2006 |
There are already many responses that are plain wrong that have references. Often, the references go on forever. These references may actually have something to do with the term(s) being asked (believe it or not, occasionally they don't). Even when they do, they are irrelevant, because they are about a different usage of the term(s).
If someone asks what "lead" means in "Where you lead, I will follow", and someone cites 10 Web sites about the element Pb, this does not lead (sorry... See more There are already many responses that are plain wrong that have references. Often, the references go on forever. These references may actually have something to do with the term(s) being asked (believe it or not, occasionally they don't). Even when they do, they are irrelevant, because they are about a different usage of the term(s).
If someone asks what "lead" means in "Where you lead, I will follow", and someone cites 10 Web sites about the element Pb, this does not lead (sorry) to enlightenment.
And don't get me started on "There are 154,236,426,422 references to zzz on Google, so that is the right answer". Well, there are 235,254,623,412,342,333 references to rrr, so THAT must be the right answer, no?
I think it's time to stop trying to ban the symptoms and start trying to figure out how to deal with the numerous repeat bad answer givers. I'm sure we all know some. ▲ Collapse
| | | | liz askew
Ujedinjeno Kraljevstvo
Local time: 09:38
Član (2007)
francuski na engleski
+ ...
POKRETAČ TEME | Yes I am being serious about references | Sep 26, 2006 |
RobinB wrote:
scruff wrote:
I think it necessary that anyone making a contribution/suggestion when answering a query, should provide web references, no matter what his/her level of experience may be.
I hope you're not seriously suggesting that:
a) everything is available on the Web
b) everything available on the Web is correct
c) references are available for everything
because a) isn't true, b) isn't true, and - certainly where translation is concerned - c) isn't true.
Hello,
I've only belonged to this group for a short time so am not au fait with how to reply to contributions.....I am finding my way through the procedures..
I take your points. Perhaps I should have just said "references"; I said "web references" as the format of Proz.com asks for http:/ sites in replies to queries. Any reliable reference would be OK i.e. from an authority figure in the field.
One remark made by a member was one I had not thought of....in relation to contributions from "minority languages" where there are no existing references except those of the translator! Excuse my lack of thought, having not taken this into consideration.
I grant that the web is not all-knowing, but where there ARE "expert", "professional" references relating to the matter being queried, then references would be appreciated.
Please do not think I disrespect the professional integrity of those translators who have MANY years of experience in his/her field when I suggest references should be supplied, it's just for those of us who are NOT so experienced it would be great if references could be provided to back up their answer. Once or twice I have spent quite a lot of time looking up stuff and then find someone else has been awarded the Proz points, just on the basis of a one word answer. Do not be offended when I say this, or get on your high horses, it is just that none of us know each other personally, and it's not that I am questioning your worthiness as translators, just purely in the pursuit of improving my own knowledge of language etc.
I didn't realise this would provoke such differing viewpoints.
Long live free speech!!
Kind regards to all of you who took the time to contribute on this.
Liz Askew/scruff
| | | | Henry Hinds
Sjedinjene Američke Države
Local time: 02:38
engleski na španjolski
+ ...
U sjećanje | Ban the Bad Answers | Sep 26, 2006 |
Can says:
"I think it's time to stop trying to ban the symptoms and start trying to figure out how to deal with the numerous repeat bad answer givers."
The best way to deal with that is not to accept their answers after doing some research on your own. When their answers are rejected time and again, they'll get the message.
Answers in themselves or any references supplied are no guarantee of quality. The end result is that the asker is the one responsible f... See more Can says:
"I think it's time to stop trying to ban the symptoms and start trying to figure out how to deal with the numerous repeat bad answer givers."
The best way to deal with that is not to accept their answers after doing some research on your own. When their answers are rejected time and again, they'll get the message.
Answers in themselves or any references supplied are no guarantee of quality. The end result is that the asker is the one responsible for that quality.
If the asker is not competent to judge the quality of the answers provided and has to accept an answer on blind faith, then it may well be the case that the asker is not competent to be doing the translation in the first place.
Those of us who answer do not need any more requirements imposed upon us. However, those who ask might often do better at providing CONTEXT, which can help immensely in improving the quaity of answers. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Francis Lee (X)
Local time: 10:38
njemački na engleski
+ ...
| Provide reasoning, not Web-reference | Sep 26, 2006 |
For Askers and Answerers, I think there should be a greater emphasis on providing context and reasoning respectively.
I always provide as much context as possible when asking a question. This is sadly not the case with many people on the site.
When answering, in most cases I will make an attempt to explain my answer. Where Internet references seem to support what I am suggesting, I state them. BUT - as pointed out by others - in many cases there will be no such Web-related re... See more For Askers and Answerers, I think there should be a greater emphasis on providing context and reasoning respectively.
I always provide as much context as possible when asking a question. This is sadly not the case with many people on the site.
When answering, in most cases I will make an attempt to explain my answer. Where Internet references seem to support what I am suggesting, I state them. BUT - as pointed out by others - in many cases there will be no such Web-related reference, especially in the case of languages other than English (not just "minority" languages).
The fact that certain Askers and Answerers provide little if not zero information is presumably due to (in no particular order)
a) laziness, i.e. lack of dedication to a job. In many cases, however, these are young/inexperienced colleagues who do not (yet) understand that context is crucial.
b) an awareness that their lack of knowledge in that field or, in the case of non-natives, less-than-perfect command of the target language will be exposed when they attempt to explain their question/answer.
But as the thread "host" has since acknowledged, insisting on Internet references is just not feasible. ▲ Collapse
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Patricia Rosas
Sjedinjene Američke Države
Local time: 02:38
španjolski na engleski
+ ...
U sjećanje | How to educate people??? | Sep 26, 2006 |
Henry Hinds wrote:
To second what Robin has said, I have seen some references for answers that are really off-the-wall. Others will Google for something and all the references they get are bad translations from non-native sites, which they then use in support of a poor answer. Still others will cite a spate of references that are in the wrong context.
And of course we always need more CONTEXT!
This strikes at something that is "eating at me" more and more as I post KudoZ queries.
People don't seem to READ -- either the POSTS (most of mine contain hints about answers that I would consider unacceptable because I've already considered or researched them and I always include CONTEXT) or the information around the GOOGLE HITS that they get (and then offer as "right" answers).
Not only do people post hits to (mis)translated terms and phrases, I've also seen people post a bunch of hits for a phrase that is widespread in English BUT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE KUDOZ QUERY. And sometimes, those answers get the points... It fries me.
So, how do we educate people--like the person who started this thread--to the value AND THE PITFALLS of relying on Google as a research tool?
| | | | Henry Hinds
Sjedinjene Američke Države
Local time: 02:38
engleski na španjolski
+ ...
U sjećanje
The task of educating is unending and often fruitless. Many take no heed, some take offense and some, bless their hearts, actualy do learn.
We have a very mixed group here, all the way from consummate professionals to clueless amateurs to people who are frauds or who do not even exist.
With freedom you take the good, while the bad... well, you just have to try to be discerning and ignore it.
Are there any courses on Internet research skills out there? That ... See more The task of educating is unending and often fruitless. Many take no heed, some take offense and some, bless their hearts, actualy do learn.
We have a very mixed group here, all the way from consummate professionals to clueless amateurs to people who are frauds or who do not even exist.
With freedom you take the good, while the bad... well, you just have to try to be discerning and ignore it.
Are there any courses on Internet research skills out there? That would sure help. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Krys Williams
Ujedinjeno Kraljevstvo
Local time: 09:38
Član (2003)
poljski na engleski
+ ...
| Yes there are courses and resources | Sep 26, 2006 |
Henry Hinds wrote:
Are there any courses on Internet research skills out there? That would sure help.
This is acknowledged as a good training resource, comes from a respectable body, focuses on different academic and professional subject areas and is free:
http://www.vts.intute.ac.uk/
the same people also provide Internet Detective, which uses a more fun approach geared to students:
http://www.vts.intute.ac.uk/detective/
I do think it is important to document Kudoz answers whenever possible, in order to show the context in which the term offered as the proposed solution is used. This will assist the asker in assessing whether the solution is relevant to his/her particular problem.
| | | | | Context - a cruicial factor | Sep 27, 2006 |
Francis Lee wrote:
I always provide as much context as possible when asking a question. This is sadly not the case with many people on the site.
And your context is greatly appreciated. This thread was initially about how to get the answerers to provide more context - but a quick zip through this evening's De-En Kudoz has made it evident that there is a distinct lack of context from many askers - no to mention the answerers.
I've tried to do my bit as a moderator asking for more context in these cases, but sometimes I feel that I am talking to a brick wall.
How can I get people to provide more context in their questions?
OK, I know this is going a bit off topic, but this evening's questions have been particularly lacking in context.
A.
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mediamatrix (X)
Local time: 06:38
španjolski na engleski
+ ...
| I'd be interested to know ... | Sep 27, 2006 |
... what proportion of web-links offered as references to Kudoz questions (and still available in the KOG, many years later) are actually dead links to ... "This page cannot be found."
Let's not over-value the Web - its very dynamics make it unreliable as a long-term resource.
MediaMatrix
| | | | Kim Metzger
Meksiko
Local time: 03:38
njemački na engleski
| Education and intelligence | Sep 28, 2006 |
Alison Riddell-Kachur wrote:
I've tried to do my bit as a moderator asking for more context in these cases, but sometimes I feel that I am talking to a brick wall.
How can I get people to provide more context in their questions?
Hi Alison - I know this is going to sound arrogant, but one of the must-have qualities of a translator is a reasonable level of intelligence. I'm not referring to folks who are just new to the profession and have a lot to learn. I know when good people start out out they aren't aware of some of the basic things any trained and experienced translator takes for granted.
What's involved in providing context? I'd say it's a matter of distilling the meaning of the text you're working on and describing it in a few words, perhaps selecting a few sentences to illustrate the point. Our transgressors can't do that. Both because they haven't got the intelligence to generalize and also because they don't understand the text they're translating. Sometimes it's a combination of low intelligence and laziness. You can't provide decent context if you're struggling with the text at the lexical level.
At the end of the day, we simply have to acknowledge that some people are translating who simply don't have the education and intelligence to distill meaning of longish pieces of discourse, especially if they know nothing about the subject they're translating. If we keep hammering away at the need for context, at best we might be able to get some of them to give us the complete sentence in which the term occurs.
| | | | RobinB
Sjedinjene Američke Države
Local time: 03:38
njemački na engleski
| Contextlessness | Sep 28, 2006 |
Alison Riddell-Kachur wrote: OK, I know this is going a bit off topic, but this evening's questions have been particularly lacking in context.
On the contrary, entirely relevant! Some of last night's askers seem to be have a particularly dense bunch, equalled only by the extraordinarily large number of particularly dense answers.
Sorry, for "dense" read "intellectually challenged", as per Kim's post.
I think this is yet another application of Darwin's "blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat which isn't there", as famously recycled by Rowan Atkinson in his "Sir Marcus Browning, MP" sketch.
I've tried to do my bit as a moderator asking for more context in these cases, but sometimes I feel that I am talking to a brick wall.
How can I get people to provide more context in their questions?
How about a "freeze" function for moderators that allows them to prevent answers to a question unless the asker supplies more context?
Or a checklist that askers have to tick off before they're allowed to post? (if there isn't one already; it's so long since I asked a question).
[Edited at 2006-09-28 13:19]
| | | | | It's a Question of Professional Ethics | Oct 15, 2006 |
This is an interesting topic, and I see I'm not the only one staring at the screen with my jaw to the floor on some of the answers given (and accepted) on Kudoz.
I have been translating in my local medical community for several years and, in fact, ran accross ProZ while searching Google for a term I was unclear on. Before that, I didn't realize there was a whole community of translators scattered around the world toiling away as I was. I joined the site for the ability to ask ques... See more This is an interesting topic, and I see I'm not the only one staring at the screen with my jaw to the floor on some of the answers given (and accepted) on Kudoz.
I have been translating in my local medical community for several years and, in fact, ran accross ProZ while searching Google for a term I was unclear on. Before that, I didn't realize there was a whole community of translators scattered around the world toiling away as I was. I joined the site for the ability to ask questions in the future (I still haven't had to, but that was my original motivation), and subsequently went platinum to be able to bid on a job (which I did not get).
I have limited all my Kudoz answers to Spanish to English medical questions. I am a gringo physician who has lived most of his adult life in Mexico so I figure it is where I could contribute. I'm not interested in answering German to English questions despite living a good part of my childhood in Germany. I'm not interested in answering Japanese to English questions despite also living many years in Japan. I also lived in Scottland, but I never could figure out what they were saying (easy there, laddie! Never draw your dirk when a blow will do it!). I stick to my area of expertise which is medicine, and I stick with my native language, which is English. I wouldn't offer medical services because I finished 3 years of medical school, and I wouldn't offer translation into a language that wasn't my own. If you met me in a Mexico City cafe, you probably wouldn't even know I'm not Mexican, but I still don't translate into Spanish. People are paying money for this work, and in most cases they have no feasible way to verify your work. Clients rely on your professional integrity when they accept your work. ProZ members rely on your professional integrity when they accept your answers.
I often wonder what is the motivation behind answering a Kudoz question you don't really understand. I see many answers that clearly have nothing to do with the question. Someone will post an answer with several references (usually just Google hits) that have nothing to do with the context of the question. Some people are of the opinion that web searches are the equivalent of research. If you believe that, just Google the word "failure" and see what comes up (it's A definition of the word, but not the ONLY definition). Without being versed on a subject, it is often difficult to impossible to decern the meaning of many phrases, especially as it relates to medicine where abbreviations and obscure terminology is the norm.
So before you post that Kudoz response, ask yourself "Do I have any idea what I'm talking about?" There may be some reason for accumulating Kudoz points, but I haven't figured out what it is.
Does it get you more work? I know I've climbed to 2nd or 3rd in the medical Esp>Eng medical category in less than a month, and I have yet to get a single job through ProZ.
Does it get you professional prestige? I don't know about that. I'm the only translator I know personally. I gotta get to a Powwow and see.
Does it bother you that you may cause someone to loose their job (or better yet, is that why you posted)? I see some of the answers that are accepted and I have to wonder (too much Machiavelli, I know). Some of them are just plain laughable (or sad, depending on the case). Sooner or later someone is going to have to explain to an editor why their supposed professional product contains such glaring errors.
I joined ProZ to have access to Kudoz. I stayed on the hope that I can earn Euros (have you seen the U.S. Dollar and Mexican Peso lately?). As of yet, neither of these benefits have proven to benefit me. At least now when I go to South America again I can attend a Powwow and write the whole trip off on my income taxes. That alone is reason enough to renew my membership.
-Saludos Tribu!
[Edited at 2006-10-15 20:59] ▲ Collapse
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