| Stranica u temi: < [1 2 3 4 5] > | Lawyers, please come back (as KudoZ answerers)! Postavljač teme: Claire Titchmarsh (X)
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| A team of professional linguists?? | Oct 28, 2006 |
ICL wrote:
For example, if you asked me, I would say the time has clearly come for Proz.com to hire (and pay) a team of professional linguists to take over the control of Kudoz, because the population of Proz.com has become too high (and keeps increasing) and more and more people use and contribute to Kudoz.
I thought we WERE professional linguists!
If some people would starting ACTING like professionals that would solve half the problem.
I certainly agree that something has to be done, but I seriously doubt that hiring a team fulltime is the answer. And I doubt it's economically viable for a site like this.
It's a shame we can't simply "police" ourselves. I, for one, have stopped answering any questions in which it is clear that the person is translating out of his/her native language. It's far to easy for people to accept jobs in which they are clearly in WAY over their heads and then turn to Kudoz because someone is bound to help. Let these folks be hoist by their own petard.
Catherine
| | | | Mats Wiman 
Švedska
Local time: 07:37
Član (2000)
njemački na švedski
+ ...
U sjećanje | Dear CMJ_trans.... Yours not exasperated | Oct 28, 2006 |
I am an old hand and I have not left and I have seen few who have.
Yes I have decreased my participation in the KudoZ arena and on the forums but the reason for it is not along the lines you mention. I simply have too much work (Thanks, ProZ.com!)
I think the the site has developed beautifully, increasing its potency and influence on the translation market.
More and more often when I mention "ProZ.com", people say "Yes ProZ" or simply "Yes". Five yars ago i... See more I am an old hand and I have not left and I have seen few who have.
Yes I have decreased my participation in the KudoZ arena and on the forums but the reason for it is not along the lines you mention. I simply have too much work (Thanks, ProZ.com!)
I think the the site has developed beautifully, increasing its potency and influence on the translation market.
More and more often when I mention "ProZ.com", people say "Yes ProZ" or simply "Yes". Five yars ago it was mostly "Pro what!?"
At that time I never got a job through Proz.com but still wanted to become a member. The site offered so much for translators that there was no question about it.
Today I get many jobs through the site and the price level is often EUR 0,15/word.
I would probably not be a translator were it not for ProZ.com.
I do not agree with your irony about how Henry handles criticism. Reflecting on the fact that he gets hundreds of suggestions a week I think he is fantastic. He does not always agree with them or he sees good sides of them but cannot immediately transform them into reality. Often very contradictory suggestions are put on his table so I'm not surprised that he often has difficulties whom to please or accomodate.
In view of the enormous volume he and the staff has to handle I do not think you can criticize him in such a sweeping manner.
I would appreciate if you were specific, i.e specify a problem and offer constructive suggestions. Do not criticize only.
Mats
[Edited at 2006-10-28 13:36]
[Edited at 2006-10-31 18:01] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | I have too much to do (because of being a KudoZ answerer). | Oct 28, 2006 |
Mats Wiman wrote:
Yes I have decreased my participation in the KudoZ arena and on the forums [because] I simply have too much work (Thanks, ProZ.com!)
I guess my experience is similar to Mats's, though I wouldn't say I belong to the “old hands” yet (I've been using the site since June 2004). Back then I stumbled upon ProZ and its KudoZ while trying to find a term for a translation I was doing at the time.
I am a huge fan, not only of ProZ, but also of KudoZ (especially the slightly competitive nature of the system). I remember being completely excited at the prospect of exchanging ideas with a dynamic group of professionals—much better than using an immovable dictionary (IMHO)—and I still am. As far as I can tell, most of the “good” translators, who were there when I started, still are; the frequency and amount of their participation varies, however, depending on how much they have to do.
In the couple of years I've been using the site my workload has increased substantially to the point that I regularly have to decline assignments. As a result, my participation in KudoZ has waned in relation to how it was when I started using the site. There are, however, many excellent and qualified translators, who still participate in KudoZ.
I am, for the most part, impressed with the quality of answers in my language pair (German-English) and area of specialization (law). It seems that gentle group pressure helps maintain quality—not only of the answers, but also of the questions.
In fact, I'd go so far as to say that quality has improved since I discovered this excellent site. (I cannot substantiate that claim, but it is my impression.) I think it is good to consider improvements, but why fix it if it aint broke?
My two cents...
[Edited at 2006-10-28 14:14]
| | | | CMJ_Trans (X)
Local time: 07:37
francuski na engleski
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| Dear Mats... | Oct 28, 2006 |
It is really nice to see how you rally round to defend Henry from what you see as an attack. I don't know you and I certainly don't work in your language pairs and so can only say that it is great that you should be able to command good prices and get lots of work through the site. And I would not venture to express an opinion about standards in pairs I know nothing about.
That said, I'm not sure what you considered ironic about what I was saying. I can assure you, no irony was mean... See more It is really nice to see how you rally round to defend Henry from what you see as an attack. I don't know you and I certainly don't work in your language pairs and so can only say that it is great that you should be able to command good prices and get lots of work through the site. And I would not venture to express an opinion about standards in pairs I know nothing about.
That said, I'm not sure what you considered ironic about what I was saying. I can assure you, no irony was meant. I was and remain dead serious.
As to concentrating on a problem, I thought I was: the problem of why people are leaving the site and why the next generation is not yet qualified to take over and fill the gap. On that score, I have nothing to add. I think I was quite clear. The pit is not bottomless and we are now trawling the depths.
Mine was a plea not to be dismissive of those who genuinely believe there is a real problem. I have spoken with other moderators and all tend to adopt your line that there is nothing new under the sun. A bit like the little girl that cried "wolf". But in the end, as I remember, there WAS a wolf. As they say: a nod should be as good as a wink to a blind cuddy....
Have a good one.... ▲ Collapse
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Jaroslaw Michalak
Poljska
Local time: 07:37
Član (2004)
engleski na poljski
LOKALIZATOR PORTALA | Ask the Askers? | Oct 28, 2006 |
I've been reading through the posts and I think I've seen a quite curious pattern: those who are talking about sharp decline in the KudoZ quality speak of them, Askers (those poor misguided souls!), who by sheer ignorance are duped by unscrupulous Answerers. On the other hand, those who talk about the answers they received themselves, seem to be quite content (with the notable exception of Tim Drayton, although he appreciated his 5%).
In other words, KudoZ answers' quality is... See more I've been reading through the posts and I think I've seen a quite curious pattern: those who are talking about sharp decline in the KudoZ quality speak of them, Askers (those poor misguided souls!), who by sheer ignorance are duped by unscrupulous Answerers. On the other hand, those who talk about the answers they received themselves, seem to be quite content (with the notable exception of Tim Drayton, although he appreciated his 5%).
In other words, KudoZ answers' quality is plummeting in the eyes of the other Answerers. I think it would be interesting if those who participated in the thread could answer the following question: do you think that the quality of answers given to the questions you have asked has been dramatically falling?
Of course, it would be great if the question was answered by those who mostly ask questions. But, incidentally, most (if not all) participants in this thread answered more questions than they asked (sometimes by a large degree). ▲ Collapse
| | | | Claire Titchmarsh (X)
Local time: 07:37
talijanski na engleski
+ ...
POKRETAČ TEME | Can we just keep things simple? | Oct 28, 2006 |
Thank you to everyone for your input.
Let's just forget about when things started to deteriorate, how much they are deteriorating, if they are in fact deteriorating at all and in which language pairs, and let's just say, for argument's sake, that the Kudoz situation needs to improve.
All I want to know is, will any additional regulations be implemented to improve Kudoz quality and glossary accuracy in the near future, or not?
| | | | | In the spirit of getting down to brass tacks | Oct 30, 2006 |
here are some thoughts.
I think the problem of past Kudoz is outside the scope of the problem at hand and needs to be dealt with seperately.
In this case as a simplistic first approach we could
1. send a message to all Kudoz holders with a 60% (?) ratio of answers accepted/answered to the effect that ProZ is trying to improve the KudoZ glossaries and needs their help. Would they be willing to form part of a moderator team for their speciality?
(even if they... See more here are some thoughts.
I think the problem of past Kudoz is outside the scope of the problem at hand and needs to be dealt with seperately.
In this case as a simplistic first approach we could
1. send a message to all Kudoz holders with a 60% (?) ratio of answers accepted/answered to the effect that ProZ is trying to improve the KudoZ glossaries and needs their help. Would they be willing to form part of a moderator team for their speciality?
(even if they don't want to be part of the team, the very fact that something is being done might entice them back anyway).
ProZ support would be needed for this (i.e. to figure out who to send the messages to).
2. Form 3-member (?) "expert" teams for each speciality.
3. Once a week (?) send the team an excel file (?) with all the questions in their speciality asked that week. On a majority basis the team can decide to:
i) accept the answer
ii) suggest a better answer. The original answer would remain but the team's answer would become the glossary answer. The first answerer's points would go into a 3rd category, or just simply become "non pro" points.
iii) reject the answer. It will remain but will be clearly marked. Again the original points will be as ii).
(This is not to make the task too onerous for the team. No more than perhaps 1 hour a week should have to be spent on this or noone will want to do it. Alternatively greater incentives than mere power and glory would have to be offered!).
Again ProZ support will be needed.
4. The teams decisions can be "appealed". The main pair moderator will be the point of reference here (as he/she will be for the various "expert" teams). ▲ Collapse
| | | | Linda 969
Local time: 07:37
talijanski na engleski
+ ...
| Asking the right questions to the right people | Oct 30, 2006 |
Claire Titchmarsh wrote:
All I want to know is, will any additional regulations be implemented to improve Kudoz quality and glossary accuracy in the near future, or not?
That's something I'd like to know too, Claire.
In the meantime, why not contact contributors who have a reliability ratio >2 and more than, say, 1,000 points, and ask them to answer a simple questionnaire about their activity in the pair they contribute to the most. For example:
- How often do you answer KudoZ questions?
a) on a daily basis
b) on a weekly basis
c) on a monthly basis
d) less often
- Over the past X months, have you answered KudoZ questions
a) more often than before?
b) as often as before?
c) less often than before?
d) not applicable
- How would you classify the likelihood that you answer KudoZ questions in the future?
a) very high
b) it’s a possibility
c) not likely
d) no chance
- How often do you ask KudoZ questions?
a) on a daily basis
b) on a weekly basis
c) on a monthly basis
d) less often
- Over the past X months, have you asked KudoZ questions
a) more often than before?
b) as often as before?
c) less often than before?
d) not applicable
- How would you classify the likelihood that you ask KudoZ questions in the future?
a) very likely
b) it’s a possibility
c) not likely
d) no chance
- How would you classify the KudoZ situation in terms of overall quality?
a) very good
b) good
c) fair
d) poor
- How often do you use the KudoZ glossaries?
a) on a daily basis
b) on a weekly basis
c) on a monthly basis
d) less often
- Over the past X months, have you used the KudoZ glossaries
a) more often than before?
b) as often as before?
c) less often than before?
d) not applicable
- How would you classify the likelihood that you use the KudoZ glossaries in the future?
a) very high
b) it’s a possibility
c) not likely
d) no chance
- How would you classify the KudoZ glossaries in terms of accuracy?
a) very good
b) good
c) fair
d) poor
I'm sure these questions can be improved on, but something along these lines may produce interesting data.
Sorry for the long post!
Linda
[Edited at 2006-10-30 11:58]
[Edited at 2006-10-30 12:19]
[Edited at 2006-10-30 12:59]
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| Responses to suvasree | Oct 31, 2006 |
Good questions, suvasree! My quick responses...
suvasree wrote:
1. When you first made a plan for Kudoz did you conceive of it as a cooperative endeavour or as a competition? Do you think these two can go hand-in-hand?
I thought of it as a game that would have a serious and useful product. (Also, by providing structure, we would avoid some of the problems associated with unstructured discussion lists - to which KudoZ was meant to be a complement.)
2. If Kudoz in your mind was a cooperative endeavour, why did you introduce the points system? Did you mean it to be an "incentive"?
First of all, I meant for the points to "let one know that something had happened." Like the click of a mouse.
Having conceived of the points, it occurred to me that they might call attention to areas of expertise, and therefore be useful to display in a directory.
3. One of the reasons why people buy Platinum membership here is to get "prominence". Do you think Kudoz gives you the same since you have decided to rank translators according to the Kudoz they have earned and the money they have paid to you and there are no other criterion
I would like ProZ.com to be a true meritocracy, with the best translators rising to the top, and the directory as it appears today was meant to be the beginnings of that. But the only criteria used now are KudoZ, browniz and time registered, and I do not consider these to have created a meaningful meritocracy.
I have not given up on the idea of a meritocracy, but the approach that I think is appropriate is now much different. There is no absolute "best" translator. There are only among-the-best translators for given projects, for given clients.
As for dividing between members and non-members, my vision was that there would be meritocratic sorting within each of the two groups, but that the two groups would be separate. For what it is worth, I do not assume paying members to be superior in translation ability to non-paying registrants. Whenever I see people suggesting that, I correct it.
If it does, do you believe that it may give rise to an unhealthy competition in a field like translation which is subjective and there may be some who would try to earn points by not very honest means? Do you even believe that points can be earned by dishonest means or do I have to show you?
It is possible to cheat in small amounts, that is true, but large-scale fraud does not happen as much as you might think, or as much as some might lead you to believe. There are giveaways.
4. Have you observed that some people registered here always answer a question in 5/10 minutes and they have been doing it for the last 3/4/5 years? Do you believe that you can answer each and every question in such a short time years on end unless...?
Yes and no, in most cases, not well. But among the community, don't forget, there are (also) some truly exceptional linguists.
5. Do you think that there would be translators who might not feel inclined to participate in this exercise and hence would not get prominence in your site although they may be excellent translators?
Yes, of course.
Do you feel that there may be translators who would not agree with this system of instant translation on principle and hence would reject it and as a consequence would be less important for your site?
Yes, some reject it. I am not sure what you mean by this making them less important, but I guess I would disagree because most ProZ.com users do not use KudoZ.
6. If points do not matter and if everyone is honest about it, why do we see so much acrimony and negative remarks in the Kudoz forum? Why do you think that people who should have nothing to do with a certain language pair are prompted to put forward their answers? Isn't it for more points?
For some people, it is the points. For others it is not. In my experience, it is better to ask than speculate on this topic.
7. You do believe that anyone and everyone can judge a translation, don't you? Or why have you conceived of such a great plan where translators are ranked according to the judgement of the Askers who can be just anybody?
That's not it. Putting the person who has the *need* in charge of deciding which answer is "most helpful" (that is the instruction) is something that I consider critical, since what we are doing is helping each other. The person who needs help is boss and we put ourselves in his/her service, and s/he in turn does the same for our when we have a need.
Also, having a potentially uninformed person choosing the most helpful answer is meant to encourage use of references, or otherwise give answerers reason to be clear in explanations.
8. You still hardly see any decline? Shall I give you numerous examples of irrelevant questions, questions dealing with topics that can't have anything to do with a professional translator's job?
My queston is not whether there are unprofessional questions, it is whether there are more or fewer than before. This topic was about trends, remember, not absolutes.
9. Do you believe that you can judge the quality of a translation from samples? Do you think it possible to translate words/terms/phrases out-of-context?
Yes, to a degree (for your first question) and usually no (for your second). I like Ford's suggestion very much, though, if that is what you are alluding to.
10. Why would someone new to this profession pay you money when he knows that there would be "grandfathers" always ranked above him in the Directory?
It's a factor.
Henry, you should have the courage to say that you meant it to be competitive and you should erase any bogus talk about a cooperative endeavour. I hope your "competitive" site would do much good to the world of translation with more "instant" answers!
Thanks for your feedback.
| | | | | Response to CMJ_trans | Oct 31, 2006 |
CMJ_Trans wrote:
Have you never noticed that you are ALWAYS on the defensive? Your immediate reaction to anything you construe as critcism is to snatch at straws to prove that, in the end, everything is OK with the site and any slippage people may think they have noticed is a just figment of their imagination.
Please reread my posts. As I said, "I am asking whether or not the turnover we now see is something other than the usual turnover." I was glad to see Claire's post, as it is timely to the KudoZ action plan that Enrique and I will be posting in a few weeks, and I was soliciting more information from her (and anyone else reading this).
In case it is not clear, the quality of KudoZ discourse is not everything I would like it to be. It never has been. Generally, the indications over the years have been that gradually, progress has been made, as we implemented things like peer agreement, more precise categories and filtering, question limits, etc. However, progress has not been made nearly as quickly as I would have hoped.
Now, and I reiterate in the terms you used in your post, I am asking myself whether this most recent wolf may be real. There are indications, but the comments in this thread show that there is, as usual, far from consensus on the matter. That is why I am probing.
If the trend is real, we should develop a firmer grasp on the situation than "I just know it is"--wouldn't you think? Otherwise, how could we go about choosing from the many proposals on the table for correcting the situation?
When the site was first launched, there were scores of older, more experienced professionl translators out there, for whom the site was something brand new. All were potential members of the site. Many joined - and lots of them have subsequently left. To begin with, there were other good people to "replace" them indeed but you may just have squandered this initial capital with the result that all that is left is the odd person who may suddenly wake up to the site's existence plus a host of younger greenhorns, who need help and do not yet have the breadth and depth of experience to help others. In short, the site is increasingly becoming a case of the blind leading the blind. The rich seam that you tapped when you first started has, as in all such cases, inevitably dried up.
OK, you may or may not be correct in this theory. I'd certainly like to know.
Assuming for the moment that a declining trend in quality does exist, do you have any evidence that translators tended to be more experienced in ProZ.com early days? I have not reviewed this data in particular, but I would guess the opposite.
Also, do you have any data on ProZ.com's market penetration? It strikes me as overly ProZ-centric to me to say that there are no good translators left "out there". Our community is not *that* important to this industry (or to language!)
I don't mean to put you on the defensive... I am just trying to come up with something concrete from which we can work.
| | | | | Good point, cbolton. | Oct 31, 2006 |
cbolton wrote:
ICL wrote:
For example, if you asked me, I would say the time has clearly come for Proz.com to hire (and pay) a team of professional linguists to take over the control of Kudoz, because the population of Proz.com has become too high (and keeps increasing) and more and more people use and contribute to Kudoz.
I thought we WERE professional linguists!
| | | | | Response to Mats | Oct 31, 2006 |
Mats Wiman wrote:
I am an old hand and I have not left and I have seen few who have.
Yes I have decreased my participation in the KudoZ arena and on the forums but the reason for it is not along the lines you mention. I simply have too much work (Thanks, ProZ.com!)
I think the the site has developed beautifully, increasing its potency and influence on the translation market.
More and more often when I mention "ProZ.com", people say "Yes ProZ" or simply "Yes". Five yars ago it was mostly "Pro what!?"
At that time I never got a job through Proz.com but still wanted to become a member. The site offered so much for translators that there was no question about it.
Today I get many jobs through the site and the price level is often EUR 0,15/word.
I would probably not be a translator were it not for ProZ.com.
Thanks for the kind words, Mats. You have also done much with your creativity to make ProZ.com what it is today.
...or he sees good sides of them but cannot immediately transform them into reality.
That is true. Sometimes good ideas sit on the shelf for longer than any of us would prefer.
Often very contradictory suggestions are put on his table so I'm not surprised that he often has difficulties whom to please or accomodate.
Exactly. In this case, there are many suggestions, and it is not so much about pleasing everyone as it is about selecting the alternative that is most likely to have the desired effects. I feel that we need more information, and probably experimentation, to find the best course.
One thing, Mats: the last part of your post comes across a bit too strong toward CMJ_Trans, at least in my reading. I know you would not have intended any offense, but I think it might be considerate of you to edit that part of your post. Thanks.
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| Good question, Jabberwock | Oct 31, 2006 |
Jabberwock wrote:
I've been reading through the posts and I think I've seen a quite curious pattern: those who are talking about sharp decline in the KudoZ quality speak of them, Askers (those poor misguided souls!), who by sheer ignorance are duped by unscrupulous Answerers. On the other hand, those who talk about the answers they received themselves, seem to be quite content (with the notable exception of Tim Drayton, although he appreciated his 5%).
Interesting observation.
In other words, KudoZ answers' quality is plummeting in the eyes of the other Answerers. I think it would be interesting if those who participated in the thread could answer the following question: do you think that the quality of answers given to the questions you have asked has been dramatically falling?
Good question! Please think in terms of trends...
| | | | | Thanks, Patricia | Oct 31, 2006 |
Patricia Crotty wrote:
here are some thoughts.
I think the problem of past Kudoz is outside the scope of the problem at hand and needs to be dealt with seperately.
In this case as a simplistic first approach we could
1. send a message to all Kudoz holders with a 60% (?) ratio of answers accepted/answered to the effect that ProZ is trying to improve the KudoZ glossaries and needs their help. Would they be willing to form part of a moderator team for their speciality?
(even if they don't want to be part of the team, the very fact that something is being done might entice them back anyway).
ProZ support would be needed for this (i.e. to figure out who to send the messages to).
2. Form 3-member (?) "expert" teams for each speciality.
3. Once a week (?) send the team an excel file (?) with all the questions in their speciality asked that week. On a majority basis the team can decide to:
i) accept the answer
ii) suggest a better answer. The original answer would remain but the team's answer would become the glossary answer. The first answerer's points would go into a 3rd category, or just simply become "non pro" points.
iii) reject the answer. It will remain but will be clearly marked. Again the original points will be as ii).
(This is not to make the task too onerous for the team. No more than perhaps 1 hour a week should have to be spent on this or noone will want to do it. Alternatively greater incentives than mere power and glory would have to be offered!).
Again ProZ support will be needed.
4. The teams decisions can be "appealed". The main pair moderator will be the point of reference here (as he/she will be for the various "expert" teams).
Excellent suggestion. In fact, we have tried to do something similar with Wikiwords, but this is a simple and practical variation for improving the KudoZ archives (if not the level of discourse in the exchanges). Thanks for the thoughts, and please stay tuned for our KudoZ action plan!
| | | | | Thanks, Linda 969 | Oct 31, 2006 |
Linda 969 wrote:
Claire Titchmarsh wrote:
All I want to know is, will any additional regulations be implemented to improve Kudoz quality and glossary accuracy in the near future, or not?
That's something I'd like to know too, Claire.
We don't necessarily have 'regulations' in mind, but Enrique posted in this thread to remind that we will be posting a KudoZ action plan within a few weeks. So, yes, that is the plan.
In the meantime, why not contact contributors who have a reliability ratio >2 and more than, say, 1,000 points, and ask them to answer a simple questionnaire about their activity in the pair they contribute to the most. For example...
Your survey appears designed to ascertain how long-standing KudoZ users (in particular) view recent KudoZ activity (in particular). Although that would certainly be interesting, I think broader information than that would be useful for the purposes of improving KudoZ.
As for the initial post, we could just contact the legal professionals who no longer contribute and ask them why not...
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