| Stranica u temi: < [1 2 3 4] > | Rate the asker? Postavljač teme: Kim Metzger
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Juliana Brown 
Izrael
Local time: 03:13
Član (2007)
španjolski na engleski
+ ...
| I like the general idea of this | Aug 13, 2007 |
Textklick wrote:
Nicole Schnell wrote:
How about restructuring this field by adding the following:
- Topic (better: purpose) of text
- Readership (maybe as check marks, such as BtoB, end-customers, existing customers, professionals/scientists, general public, special interest, etc.
- Sample paragraph
- Specification of target language (E.g. BE or AE, -N/A-)
As long as any of those required fields are empty, the question simply can't be sent.
Yep: make them all mandatory fields - like "confidence level" is for answerers. It could just give people that little nudge to rethink, check the glossary, even to ask themselves those questions - maybe even for the first time! 
The differentiation between e.g. EN/UK and EN/US alone as target would save a lot of well-meaning people a lot of time
Chris
I have to wonder though about adding a box to check like "this is not one of my usual areas, but my colleague/PM/client begged me to do this, so excuse the fact that I am asking what could be construed as a ridiculous percentage of the text, including phrases which are shockingly basic. Mea culpa and thanks for your help". This is another type of context which we may be missing.
Having said that, I must agree with Martin that there are time when I am sure that we are all (whether we wish to admit it or not), perhaps less than perfect, for whatever reason. We SHOULD strive to be professional, and indeed I heartily applaud the idea of POLITE comments, i.e. "This word is located in the dictionary/Wikipedia/the glossary", etc., though we may be ranting at home "Are you KIDDING?"
| | | | Irene N
Sjedinjene Američke Države
Local time: 02:13
engleski na ruski
+ ...
| So have I:-) | Aug 13, 2007 |
You have a valid point there.
CMJ_Trans wrote:
And I thought I was too old for illusions.....
Anyway, punch on the nose anyone who'd dare to say you are old for anything. I'll second you:-)
Regards,
Irene
| | | | | the other side | Aug 13, 2007 |
Luca Ruella wrote:
I do not like the idea of people blaming me because I forgot to do something or skipped a reference.
Kudoz are meant as a support and stress relief, not the opposite.
We need context. Yes, definitely. We need to educate the asker. Sure!
Often, askers need to be explained what exactly constitutes "context": a sentence, a paragraph, target readership, overall style. Some askers believe that ‘context’ is the sentence in which the term occurs: they are convinced they have already provided ‘context’ by selecting the appropriate field Medical/Technical/Law.
These are the instructions that are currently popping up when an asker decides to post a query:
“When asking a question, the following information is requested from the asker:
Broad field
Specific field
[Write-in field- optional]
TERM
Explanation/more about the term with the added info:
“As much explanation as possible should be entered for the term. Consider including: type of document/situation, country and dialect, URLs, translations you are considering, etc.”
The last sentence clearly states what kind of information is needed/required. Yet, people seem to forget, ignore or disregard this advice - all the time. I’d like to propose that they don’t deliberately do it to annoy us. Each day, new askers find the site who are unfamiliar with the whole Q-A system. Then there are askers who are under extreme time pressure and just need that ONE term, please. Askers who were lured into accepting an assignment that was supposed to be of a “general nature” but turned out to be riddled with obscure medical terms. Askers who are tackling their third translation project ever, who feel overwhelmed by the sheer number of ambiguous words and post 6 really easy terms in a row, because they just want to make absolutely sure they get it right. And experienced askers who know all the rules yet still manage to omit that crucial piece of reference that would have made finding the correct term so much easier.
Who am I to rate the asker? Who am I to determine the stress level, ignorance, lacking professionalism, physical handicap, anxieties, real or imagined, of the asker?
We should remind askers to provide more context - but be kind, please And no, I'm not getting tired of it. I don't mind explaining people what we need to provide useful answers. And we have many outstanding contributors who set excellent examples.
My point is that I find it really difficult to pass judgment on a person’s reason for asking a question - or for omitting crucial context, for that matter. KudoZ is designed as a help system. People should feel comfortable using it. They should not feel intimidated, belittled, or put down because they forgot to add a clarifying sentence. A friendly, non-judgmental community of professionals who respect each other as colleagues, some with more experience, some with less: that’s what I would wish for. And that, for me, also constitutes the PRO - as in “professionalism” - aspect of the site: courtesy, friendliness, and goodwill.
j.
| | | | Andy Watkinson
Španjolska
Local time: 09:13
Član
katalonski na engleski
+ ...
Often, askers need to be explained what exactly constitutes "context":
I find this quite incredible.
Who, exactly, are we talking about here, Johanna?
From your description of these "askers", you're talking about people who obviously aren't translators if they need the meaning of the word "context" explained to them.
Would you trust a doctor who needs you to explain to him/her what a "symptom" is?
No, I thought not.
Cheers,
Andy
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Kim Metzger
Meksiko
Local time: 01:13
njemački na engleski
POKRETAČ TEME | Explaining context | Aug 13, 2007 |
Andy Watkinson wrote:
From your description of these "askers", you're talking about people who obviously aren't translators if they need the meaning of the word "context" explained to them.
And now it's my turn to disagree with you for the first time, Andy, although in general terms your point is well taken. I don't know if you're a trained translator, but a lot of us are self-taught, meaning we all started off a little on the shaky side.
When I took up the profession about 7 years ago, my understanding of context was shaped by my studies of English lit, but it took me a while to grasp the full meaning as understood by translators. It seems so obvious, but it's not until you've wrestled with thousands of pages of text as a translator that the full meaning sinks in.
I took plenty of hits when I first started asking questions in KudoZ. I blush to think of what I presented in those days. So, yes, a little gentleness is in order for the newbies. I'm mainly concerned about the folks who've been doing a lousy job of submitting questions for years.
Postscript: I said I took plenty of hits in those days - those were the days before it became a serious offense to speak bluntly to askers. Those blunt remarks made an impression on me - and helped me improve.
[Edited at 2007-08-14 00:24]
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Andy Watkinson wrote:
I find this quite incredible.
I'm talking about goodwill. That's all.
j.
| | | | Juliana Brown
Izrael
Local time: 03:13
Član (2007)
španjolski na engleski
+ ...
| This makes me feel a bit better | Aug 14, 2007 |
Kim Metzger wrote:
Andy Watkinson wrote:
From your description of these "askers", you're talking about people who obviously aren't translators if they need the meaning of the word "context" explained to them.
And now it's my turn to disagree with you for the first time, Andy, although in general terms your point is well taken. I don't know if you're a trained translator, but a lot of us are self-taught, meaning we all started off a little on the shaky side.
When I took up the profession about 7 years ago, my understanding of context was shaped by my studies of English lit, but it took me a while to grasp the full meaning as understood by translators. It seems so obvious, but it's not until you've wrestled with thousands of pages of text as a translator that the full meaning sinks in.
I took plenty of hits when I first started asking questions in KudoZ. I blush to think of what I presented in those days. So, yes, a little gentleness is in order for the newbies. I'm mainly concerned about the folks who've been doing a lousy job of submitting questions for years.
since I suspect some of us are squirming in our seats and thinking "yup, I posted some doozies".
This of course brings us back to the point of WHEN does it morph from a newbie problem, which we can all (hopefully) be sympathetic to and try to support with polite comments and suggestions, to a "return offender" matter...?
| | | | Andy Watkinson
Španjolska
Local time: 09:13
Član
katalonski na engleski
+ ...
Hi Kim,
No, I’m not a “trained translator”, though nobody seems to have noticed for the past three decades.
Yes, I am sure I produced translations when I started out which I would now be embarrassed to own up to.
But the vital difference is that, at that time, I never pretended to be a fully-fledged “translator” (I was, in fact, the head of studies of a language school and would help out our translators when needed – excellent practice without ... See more Hi Kim,
No, I’m not a “trained translator”, though nobody seems to have noticed for the past three decades.
Yes, I am sure I produced translations when I started out which I would now be embarrassed to own up to.
But the vital difference is that, at that time, I never pretended to be a fully-fledged “translator” (I was, in fact, the head of studies of a language school and would help out our translators when needed – excellent practice without inflicting any real “damage” on clients as they only saw my work after revision ).
The answer to your good self, Johanna and Juliana is to be found in my first post in this thread, which apparently has received zero attention.
If I may re-post a small passage:
“e.g. Asker purports to specialise in accounting, but is nonplussed by the expression "Intangible assets".
e.g. Asker who, in the space of 3 days, posts questions ranging from ceramics to medicine to optical alignment of machine trains.
e.g. Asker stumped by a 1 letter typo in a sentence and has neither the experience nor the simple imagination to solve it for themselves.
What they all have in common is their failure to realise the impression they make on other translators and especially on any clients who see how a translation they thought they'd assigned to the right person is being chopped up into easily translatable chunks and posted in public for everyone else to solve.”
These are the people I’m referring to and, as others have mentioned before, they’re only translating and not flipping hamburgers because on ProZ we’re flipping them for them.
Cheers,
Andy
[Edited at 2007-08-14 00:44] ▲ Collapse
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CMJ_Trans (X)
Local time: 09:13
francuski na engleski
+ ...
| Andy has a good point... | Aug 14, 2007 |
The trouble is that this site has become a breeding ground for laziness.
Ideally ProZ was indeed for PROFESSIONALS (not necessarily people with translation diplomas, though - ironically - I, a now non-translator, actually have such a diploma!).
It should be the LAST port of call for those faced with a translation diffficulty. Instead it has become a cop-out, a means of avoiding having to do one's own legwork.
Goodwill is fine - and I have plenty of it: for des... See more The trouble is that this site has become a breeding ground for laziness.
Ideally ProZ was indeed for PROFESSIONALS (not necessarily people with translation diplomas, though - ironically - I, a now non-translator, actually have such a diploma!).
It should be the LAST port of call for those faced with a translation diffficulty. Instead it has become a cop-out, a means of avoiding having to do one's own legwork.
Goodwill is fine - and I have plenty of it: for deserving causes. However, people who have little chance of ever becoming good professional translators, because they lack the intellectual discipline to try at least to find things out for themselves, are doing a great deal of harm to the profession. They are also often the ones who charge peanut rates, accept jobs that no self-respecting professional would take on the terms offered, etc.
If we all go on being as tolerant as we are, if the site rules go on muzzling us in the way they now do, we are heading fast towards the lowest common denominator.
And, ironically, we are caught up in a wonderful "Catch 22" situation: the site wants to boast a glossary that the whole world (I exaggerate) will wish to consult, yet we, the contributors (never forget that - without people like us the whole system will die a death) are finding our efforts devalued because it is being allowed to become no better than any bog standard dictionary. And those that have the last word are the askers whose ignorance prompted questions in the first place.......
Talk about shooting yourself in the foot. And all this in the name of tolerance. maybe it's (again) time for one or two leading questions about the "mission" of the site. And maybe, even more, time for one or two upfront answers? ▲ Collapse
| | | | | About being tolerant | Aug 14, 2007 |
Irene wrote:
“[…]in too many cases those desperate and angry calls for 2 pages of context simply mean eager responders who know nothing but are dying to get some points and answer regardless but they want a long explanation first... In a decent number of cases no extended context is required at all for those who really know...”
I’ve noticed that many times myself. For the most part, questions are directed at specialists in the respective field who will know wh... See more Irene wrote:
“[…]in too many cases those desperate and angry calls for 2 pages of context simply mean eager responders who know nothing but are dying to get some points and answer regardless but they want a long explanation first... In a decent number of cases no extended context is required at all for those who really know...”
I’ve noticed that many times myself. For the most part, questions are directed at specialists in the respective field who will know what the question is about. Frequently, people who do not appear to be specialised in the field complain about lack of context (even if two mechanical engineers already gave well founded answers and apparently do not see any problems regarding the question).
Johanna wrote:
“A friendly, non-judgmental community of professionals who respect each other as colleagues, some with more experience, some with less: that’s what I would wish for. And that, for me, also constitutes the PRO - as in “professionalism” - aspect of the site: courtesy, friendliness, and goodwill.”
That’s exactly the point. You do not know the circumstances of the asker and should therefore not assume laziness or any other reason for the way the question was worded. There are numerous reasons why askers do not provide more context and who are we to judge them?
Being tolerant is extremely important when 200,000 people want to “live” together. With so many people participating, there will be abusers and this needs to be addressed. However, dreaming up sophisticated systems to punish alleged abusers is out of proportion. I think the people behind this site are doing a good job in balancing all those different interests.
The fact that certain answerers constantly comment on questions they are not qualified to answer is much more of a problem IMO.
[Edited at 2007-08-14 11:11] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Beautiful words! | Aug 14, 2007 |
Johanna Timm, PhD wrote:
My point is that I find it really difficult to pass judgment on a person’s reason for asking a question - or for omitting crucial context, for that matter. KudoZ is designed as a help system. People should feel comfortable using it. They should not feel intimidated, belittled, or put down because they forgot to add a clarifying sentence. A friendly, non-judgmental community of professionals who respect each other as colleagues, some with more experience, some with less: that’s what I would wish for. And that, for me, also constitutes the PRO - as in “professionalism” - aspect of the site: courtesy, friendliness, and goodwill.
Beautiful words that I wholeheartedly share.
Thanks Johanna!
Q
| | | | Andy Watkinson
Španjolska
Local time: 09:13
Član
katalonski na engleski
+ ...
| Wishful thinking | Aug 14, 2007 |
A friendly, non-judgmental community of professionals who respect each other as colleagues (...) that’s what I would wish for
Yes, "beautiful words" no doubt, Enrique, but keep wishing.
That is not the reality of the situation (if it were, I very much doubt someone as intelligent as Kim would have thought it necessary to open this thread in the first place).
It's of absolutely no use waxing lyrical about how wonderful a perfect situation would be. This is not "The Little House on the Prairie".
Johanna, you talk about "professionals who respect each other". That's the whole point of the issue.
Askers who are simply too lazy to open a dictionary or spend a couple of minutes researching for themselves do not respect you one iota when they post a question.
And please don't tell me they're not lazy and perhaps have some temporary problem I'm unaware of - if that were the case, why are they still posting dumb questions after 2 years?
They simply want you to do the donkey work for them. They respect neither the profession nor the answerers.
And in case you're not sure of whom I'm referring to, take a quick look at the KudoZ section of the main page and you'll see the same names cropping up day in day out.
One day it's biochemistry, the next day it's sailing, the next it's a re-zoning plan from the local authorities or the specifications for a machine which they would be unable to recognise if it fell on them from a great height.
Open any of their questions and look at their questions asked/answered ratio.
Don't bother, I'll tell you.
Questions asked: 3027
Questions answered: 0
And you think these people have any respect for their "colleagues"?
I wouldn't go so far as to say that the "abusers" outnumber the genuine askers, but they are numerous, and to pretend they don't exist by describing some utopian situation is not constructive in the slightest.
I think Kim's probably given up by now.
Cheers,
Andy
[Edited at 2007-08-14 16:18]
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Andy Watkinson wrote:
They simply want you to do the donkey work for them.
If an asker does not provide all the context I need for coming up with an intelligent answer then I don’t take this as a personal affront. I don’t assume the asker did it on purpose, to annoy me, or to make my own precious life in my Little House on the West Coast more difficult. I don’t feel disrespected because of it. I think that person must be under stress and could use some help.
It would never cross my mind that by helping someone with terms I’m doing their “donkey work” for them – even if I assist that person 15 times. Either I enjoy the challenge to come up with a fitting term – then I won’t mind spending the time researching it – or I don’t have the time for it, in which case I simply don’t participate. The notion that certain askers do not ‘deserve’ my brilliant ideas is – in my mind - simply preposterous; and not for a second would I believe that another asker of supposedly easy terms is a competitor and that I could have done a much better job on this assignment. In my books, that’s simply petty, small-minded, and a complete waste of energy.
But I really need to get back into my Little House now
| | | | Andy Watkinson
Španjolska
Local time: 09:13
Član
katalonski na engleski
+ ...
| Realism 0 - Utopia 1 | Aug 14, 2007 |
But I really need to get back into my Little House now
Quite.
I don’t take this as a personal affront. I don’t assume the asker did it on purpose, to annoy me
I have never suggested they do it to annoy anyone. Please provide a single statement to that effect by me.
What I said is that they are not "colleagues" - and they do not respect your "brilliant ideas" (sic) - they are simply "using" those "brilliant ideas" without making a single contribution, without helping anyone else in return for them having virtually written their translation for them.
This is called "spoon-feeding" and it's not good for the giver or the receiver. I think that much is common sense.
and not for a second would I believe that another asker of supposedly easy terms is a competitor and that I could have done a much better job on this assignment
Again, Johanna, where did I ever say that?
Or is it some kind of Freudian slip?
In my books, that’s simply petty, small-minded
If you are implying that my attitude can be described by the adjectives above, might I make so bold as to remind you that there is a rule against this?
After all, you're a moderator and should know such things.
Thank you.
Andy
| | | | | final remark | Aug 15, 2007 |
I described a general attitude that I observed and I did not refer to any person in particular. I’m sorry if you, Andy, felt attacked! My position is clear and I will leave it at that now.
Thank you.
johanna
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