| Stranica u temi: < [1 2 3] > | Yet another question about KudoZ behavior... Postavljač teme: Marcelo Silveyra
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Marlene Curtis 
Sjedinjene Američke Države
Local time: 01:22
engleski na portugalski
+ ...
| Kudoz Behavior | Sep 19, 2007 |
Henry Hinds wrote:
Kudoz does not a good translator make.
People can ask all the questions they want, easy, difficult, in-between and it makes no difference. By looking at the question one can tell the skill of the translator. If their skill is close to zero, asking all the questions in the world will not enable them to produce a good translation. Perhaps all they can produce is a very poor translation with some good terminology choices here and there, or maybe some good terms used in the wrong context and thus worthless.
It's not in knowing the words, it's about how to put them together.
I'm willing to share my knowledge and have little fear of competition from those who are incompetent. Now if those who are competent can learn more, they can lend greater credibility to our profession which is something that helps us all.
It's easy to get upset, but after all, we are on the Internet, folks, and despite all efforts, everything goes. But compared to the Internet in general, I think we have gone a long way in insuring a profitable and civilized sharing of knowledge and ideas.
I get a bit upset when I see some things happening, but such is the price of freedom and I think it is worth it.
I don't know if you 've noticed that one of two askers ask around 20 questions a day and always seem to get a lot of work.
| | | | Kim Metzger
Meksiko
Local time: 23:22
njemački na engleski
Marcelo – your thread raises an interesting point: at present our only option is either to ignore these people (filter) or risk justified disapproval from colleagues if we decide to go ahead and answer anyway. The best thing that fellow pros have going at the moment is to take the solidarity approach and refuse to participate in the farce.
But I think pro translators should be given another option.
I was just imagining how I would feel as a cabinetmaker if I saw a novice em... See more Marcelo – your thread raises an interesting point: at present our only option is either to ignore these people (filter) or risk justified disapproval from colleagues if we decide to go ahead and answer anyway. The best thing that fellow pros have going at the moment is to take the solidarity approach and refuse to participate in the farce.
But I think pro translators should be given another option.
I was just imagining how I would feel as a cabinetmaker if I saw a novice employing all sorts of hair-raising methods in a workshop simply because he was new to the trade. I could imagine someone trying to cut a board on a table saw without a guard and fence and coming close to cutting off his fingers or getting the board hurled back into his face at 50 miles per hour. OK, a little dramatic, but the point is I would want to scream out to this novice and ask him to turn off the table saw and listen to me for a moment.
This is a natural reaction for anyone who knows his trade and cares about best practices.
But as writeaway points out, we must bite our tongues when we see worst practices in KudoZ. Some moderators come down on members like a ton of bricks when they dare to say anything about doing one's homework before posting a KudoZ question, etc. Never mind comments about translating in fields and language pairs that one masters. We are not allowed to shout out: hold on! Please, don't do this!
I don't know how we could handle this without creating a monster, a situation in which others bite people's heads off when they're new to the profession. And I suppose that's why we're where we are now: just bite your tongue.
But maybe we can brainstorm and come up with an approach that offers newcomers to the profession some helpful and friendly advice on the do's and don'ts of the trade. I know you've already suggested creating a FAQ for newcomers, but what we need is a tool to tap people on the shoulder when they've already gone too far. That's why I've always advocated giving moderators more authority to act.
[Edited at 2007-09-19 18:43] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | There's a false safety in numbers! | Sep 19, 2007 |
Here's another facet to your dilemma: I have recently answered a question directly related to my area of specialization where I actually knew the correct answer - I went to school for it. However, both the asker and multiple respondents seemed to base their knowledge of the subject (or lack thereof) on a poorly written on-line encyclopedia. As a result, the asker selected a ridiculously incorrect answer. Henry Hinds is right, KudoZ does not a good translator make. Don't you worry, man, you'... See more Here's another facet to your dilemma: I have recently answered a question directly related to my area of specialization where I actually knew the correct answer - I went to school for it. However, both the asker and multiple respondents seemed to base their knowledge of the subject (or lack thereof) on a poorly written on-line encyclopedia. As a result, the asker selected a ridiculously incorrect answer. Henry Hinds is right, KudoZ does not a good translator make. Don't you worry, man, you'll have more work coming your way - editing those incompetently done translations. ▲ Collapse
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| Two Wrongs Don't Make A Right | Sep 19, 2007 |
Kim Metzger wrote:
But as writeaway points out, we must bite our tongues when we see worst practices in KudoZ. Some moderators come down on members like a ton of bricks when they dare to say anything about doing one's homework before posting a KudoZ question, etc. Never mind comments about translating in fields and language pairs that one masters. We are not allowed to shout out: hold on! Please, don't do this!
I agree whole-heartedly with your general comments Kim and share the frustration to some extent.
However you need only take the Dutch-English site as an example of why some moderators perhaps do feel the need to act the way you describe above.
There is a certain, fairly talented, translator on that site who feels it is his/her God-given right to police the sub-site. He/she constantly bumps down questions to non-pro (when the question is admittedly easy, but is not non-pro in terms of the current rules) and then doesn't participate further at all, continuously abuses the "ask the asker" box with snide remarks about doing homework etc and goes as far as skyping people all day behind the scenes to draw their attention to the latest innane question in his/her language pairs.
(I eventually couldn't take it anymore and broke off all contact - a) because I've got better things to do with my time and b) ironically the same person took up too much of my time asking me what were often rather non-pro legal questions directly).
That doesn't bode well for a good community spirit either, and in fact a number of the Dutch-English translators are so fed up with it they have complained to the moderator.
It's up to the moderators and moderators alone to do the policing.
So, I understand the quality concerns that you raise, agree with writeaway that rules should be applied consistently and am all in favour of moderators being given greater authority to tap people on the shoulder about doing their homework first etc, but let it be the actual moderators and not the self-annointed ones.
[Edited at 2007-09-19 20:18]
| | | | Manuela Mariño Beltrán (X)
Njemačka
Local time: 07:22
francuski na španjolski
+ ...
| Kudoz behaviour | Sep 19, 2007 |
Hello,
I agree with Henry Hinds...
One can be completely astonished after reading the kind of questions people ask sometimes, but that's the way life is! Those who help because they feel they cannot let things like that, have the best reason to do it... and those who help only for the points, well, that's their business... It is a question of intellectual honesty.
Kudoz is a "translation tool", not a "translation school". Everyone is free to decide how to... See more Hello,
I agree with Henry Hinds...
One can be completely astonished after reading the kind of questions people ask sometimes, but that's the way life is! Those who help because they feel they cannot let things like that, have the best reason to do it... and those who help only for the points, well, that's their business... It is a question of intellectual honesty.
Kudoz is a "translation tool", not a "translation school". Everyone is free to decide how to use it.
Cheers ▲ Collapse
| | | | Kim Metzger
Meksiko
Local time: 23:22
njemački na engleski
| Ignore or help? | Sep 20, 2007 |
As a teacher for over 30 years, I'm in favor of helping people improve rather than just ignoring them. Over the years, in response to the wishes of hundreds of pro translators who clamored for KudoZ improvements, ProZ.com has acknowledged that questions must meet certain standards and that there should be a limit to how many questions askers can ask per week (currently 60 for members). The standards are formulated in the rules for asking and the reasons for squashing questions:
Of... See more As a teacher for over 30 years, I'm in favor of helping people improve rather than just ignoring them. Over the years, in response to the wishes of hundreds of pro translators who clamored for KudoZ improvements, ProZ.com has acknowledged that questions must meet certain standards and that there should be a limit to how many questions askers can ask per week (currently 60 for members). The standards are formulated in the rules for asking and the reasons for squashing questions:
Offensive (sexist, racist, etc.)
Adult nature and/or profane
Unprofessional; lacks literary/technical merit
Nonsense
Repetition (i.e. exactly same as prev/next question)
Text to be translated is longer than ten words
Includes more than one term question
Not a language question
Incomplete question
Asker and answerer the same
Asker requested removal of question
We can't squash a question because it's already in the glossary, because it lacks enough context to be a viable question, because the asker has taken on an assignment he or she isn't qualified to handle, because the asker hasn't done the basic homework any pro translator would be expected to do before asking, because the asker is too lazy (or inexperienced) to classify his question properly, enter the special characters (accent marks, umlauts, etc.) that would make it possible to find the question and answers in the glossary or because the asker closes the question 5 minutes after the first answer comes in.
But we could offer the asker some helpful advice, feedback designed to improve the results he or she might get from KudoZ. Some of the best KudoZ askers weren't so hot when they started out (including me). But the challenge is to find a way to offer this advice without becoming offensive, and I think the solution I'm proposing below might fit the bill because it's based on the format for squashing questions: a set of pre-formulated responses to questions/askers.
For a short period, it was possible for members to vote to mark a question a "good question." Members without editing rights are able to vote to change a question from pro to non-pro and vice versa. We could use the same approach to send a message to the asker. If enough members thought the asker had not done his homework before asking the question, the asker would be informed that "at least 5 members would like to call your attention to rule 2.1: KudoZ should be used for requesting terms help only after other resources have been exhausted.
Other possible responses:
1. See rule 2.1 - KudoZ should be used for requesting terms help only after other resources have been exhausted.
2. You haven't provided enough context for a viable translation.
3. We think you should be more careful in accepting assignments in the future. – I KNOW, there's not much chance of this one getting into the list as currently formulated.
4. Five members have suggested that the question is already in the archives.
[Edited at 2007-09-20 01:05] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Tim Drayton
Cipar
Local time: 08:22
turski na engleski
+ ...
| I know what you mean, but ... | Sep 20, 2007 |
I share all of the concerns voiced in this thread, and there are a lot of things I dislike about the way the kudoz works (in fact I have started my own threads about my own particular grouses in the past), but when about two weeks ago I was really stuck for a precise peice of terminology, I finally posted the following kudoz question:
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/2119016
and received an extreme... See more I share all of the concerns voiced in this thread, and there are a lot of things I dislike about the way the kudoz works (in fact I have started my own threads about my own particular grouses in the past), but when about two weeks ago I was really stuck for a precise peice of terminology, I finally posted the following kudoz question:
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/2119016
and received an extremely satisfactory response.
Does anything else really matter? ▲ Collapse
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megane_wang
Španjolska
Local time: 07:22
Član (2007)
engleski na španjolski
+ ...
| There's something even worse... | Sep 20, 2007 |
Even worse than that, there exist people who get a job you have done a correct test for...
... and then have absolutely no problems to ask for rather obvious terms, or full sentences which appeared in the test (of course, obvious to someone who knows about the subject).
... which leads me to ask WHY on earth did they get the job.
I never answer those questions, but of course other prozians don't know or don't care about that, and there's always someo... See more Even worse than that, there exist people who get a job you have done a correct test for...
... and then have absolutely no problems to ask for rather obvious terms, or full sentences which appeared in the test (of course, obvious to someone who knows about the subject).
... which leads me to ask WHY on earth did they get the job.
I never answer those questions, but of course other prozians don't know or don't care about that, and there's always someone ready to answer.
I don't like helping in that case, because that person applied for a job he/she was not prepared for, because the agency is most probably paying less than appropriate, because I don't want any of both to benefit from my knowledge for free.
One thing I miss in ProZ rules is that the askers should provide their translation intent, or some context explanation that demonstrates that they are also doing their part of the job. The people I describe above rarely provide any of those.
Ruth @ MW
[Edited at 2007-09-20 07:28] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Textklick
Local time: 06:22
njemački na engleski
+ ...
U sjećanje | Slight variation on Kim's idea | Sep 20, 2007 |
Kim Metzger wrote:
For a short period, it was possible for members to vote to mark a question a "good question." Members without editing rights are able to vote to change a question from pro to non-pro and vice versa. We could use the same approach to send a message to the asker. If enough members thought the asker had not done his homework before asking the question, the asker would be informed that "at least 5 members would like to call your attention to rule 2.1: KudoZ should be used for requesting terms help only after other resources have been exhausted.
Other possible responses:
1. See rule 2.1 - KudoZ should be used for requesting terms help only after other resources have been exhausted.
2. You haven't provided enough context for a viable translation.
3. We think you should be more careful in accepting assignments in the future. – I KNOW, there's not much chance of this one getting into the list as currently formulated.
4. Five members have suggested that the question is already in the archives.
How about simply including a drop-down checkbox to cover such features as the 4 ones you mention above? One click permitted and no need to tender a suggestion for the question.
As a way of dealing with your charitably suggested: "... I would want to scream out to this novice and ask him to turn off the table saw and listen to me for a moment" issue that you mentioned above, it could save people time, possibly also prevent some carping and backbiting and help newbies.
It need not be referred to as "good question?" but maybe "instant response option".
Cheers
Chris
[Edited at 2007-09-20 09:40]
| | | | CMJ_Trans (X)
Local time: 07:22
francuski na engleski
+ ...
| I tend to agree with Kim | Sep 20, 2007 |
Hope it's not a generational thing....
That said, I think and have long thought, that it should be IMPOSSIBLE to ask a question without first having consulted the glossaries.
I'm sure the ProZ IT wizards must be able to fix something up along these lines, no?
| | | | Speranza
Local time: 07:22
španjolski na ruski
+ ...
| just curiosity… | Sep 20, 2007 |
…expressed by someone who does not use the KudoZ system at all.
Kim Metzger wrote:
...ProZ.com has acknowledged that questions must meet certain standards and that there should be a limit to how many questions askers can ask per week (currently 60 for members).
So, you are translating a text in a field you specialize in. You obviously got the job because the client had reasons to believe you were the best option. Then you encounter a term that you – an expert – don't know and can't figure out what it means. You consult dictionaries, and other reference material, and the Internet. Nothing. All other resources are exhausted, and you are left with no choice other than to ask your colleagues for help. (If the above is not the case, the rules demand that you refrain from posting a KudoZ question, right?)
Now the question is, how often can a professional be expected to find themselves in situations like that? Sixty times a week? Perhaps more, considering that actual demand must logically be above the restriction?
And then, when you do post a question, somebody invariably comes up with an answer within minutes (judging by what I read in this thread). You, the person believed to be the best candidate for the job, have done all kinds of research and are hopelessly stuck anyway (sixty times a week), but others immediately crowd in to offer helpful advice. Moreover, occasionally they provide a bunch of links to websites supporting their suggestions. I guess they have access to a secret version of Google allowing them to find things you can't find because, as we remember, you have already searched all over the Internet and discovered nothing…
In brief, what reasons do people have for thinking of KudoZ as a system designed for sharing exclusive expertise and obtaining information that is not available elsewhere? Isn't it just a time-saving tool for one party and a marketing tool for the other? Will it be a disaster for the community to acknowledge this? Because once you do, the answer to Marcelo's question becomes obvious: If you think that the use of your experience, hard work and so on by others is a price you are prepared to pay for better exposure, then participate; if not, then don't. Let's be honest, if people complied with the use-other-resources-first rule, the flow of questions would reduce dramatically. And it is hard to imagine what would happen to the answering activity should the points system be eliminated.
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| Clever reasoning | Sep 21, 2007 |
Nadejda Sokolova wrote:
In brief, what reasons do people have for thinking of KudoZ as a system designed for sharing exclusive expertise and obtaining information that is not available elsewhere? Isn't it just a time-saving tool for one party and a marketing tool for the other? Will it be a disaster for the community to acknowledge this? Because once you do, the answer to Marcelo's question becomes obvious: If you think that the use of your experience, hard work and so on by others is a price you are prepared to pay for better exposure, then participate; if not, then don't. Let's be honest, if people complied with the use-other-resources-first rule, the flow of questions would reduce dramatically. And it is hard to imagine what would happen to the answering activity should the points system be eliminated .
Furthermore, a zero tolerance approach to those who contravene the exhaust-all-other-options-first rule would also have pretty disastrous results for site traffic.
Not good for business
| | | | Marcelo Silveyra
Sjedinjene Američke Države
Local time: 22:22
Član (2007)
njemački na engleski
+ ...
POKRETAČ TEME | Here we go... | Sep 27, 2007 |
Sorry that I didn't contribute again to this forum thread since posting it, but I got kind of busy this last week. However, I did get to see Ahmad's kind-hearted nature, think that John and Cindy and I are talking about exactly the same person, and read Kim's great ideas and Textclick's suggestions regarding them, among other things...
Nadejda Sokolova wrote:
In brief, what reasons do people have for thinking of KudoZ as a system designed for sharing exclusive expertise and obtaining information that is not available elsewhere? Isn't it just a time-saving tool for one party and a marketing tool for the other?
Yes, that's how it currently works for most people, and denying it would simply be ignoring the facts (well...perceptions based on a lot of empirical evidence). However, that's not how it needs to be used. I've only asked two questions in Kudoz - the first time because I needed a term that I couldn't find (I did find it later, but I had spent hours searching already, and the answer provided, although not the right one, kept me going in the right direction) and the second because my brain refused to work to figure out a sentence that should have been relatively easy to understand in a technical setting, but that I hadn't been able to figure out for hours. I didn't use Kudoz as a time-saving tool. I used it because I really needed the help, and someone was there to help both times. It's a magnificent tool in that sense.
As far as the "marketing tool" thing goes, I dunno. For example: I'm probably about 20,000 or 30,000 points away from the leader in the English>Spanish pair, and the top translators in that pair generally "make" at least 1000 points more than I do every 3 months, so I have no chance in hell of ever getting up there and having my oh-so-pretty name show up in the startlet skies of the ProZ directory hall of fame. And I'm not going to sit in front of my computer all day answering Kudoz questions. I'd rather finish my work or play video games, practice piano/guitar, go out to headbang at the Rainbow (that needs an explanation, I guess), read, etc.
But even more interesting is the following fact: none of the clients I've gotten through Proz have ever looked at my Kudoz points. They looked at my resume, perhaps at a sample translation - and most have become recurring clients after seeing my work. Of course, I had the advantage that I'd been doing this way before I joined Proz, but I don't think they would have looked at my Kudoz points even if I hadn't.
So is it a time-saving tool? It can be. A marketing tool? It can be. Can it be used differently? I would think so.
Now, the zero-tolerance approach, as mentioned previously, would be disastrous for business AND for simple PR between translators. I would say that's out of the question and probably no one's going to argue with that.
But Kim's suggestions, and that's exactly why I was asking if there would be a possible C), seem quite reasonable to me. Let's face it: Proz is a service, not a monitoring agency for the translation business. Kudoz has plenty of flaws, but also excellent benefits. Not everyone on the site is a professional or acts like one, but plenty of people on the site are or do. So the issue, as far as I'm concerned, is not a complete redesign of Kudoz (which is never going to happen anyway) or anything like that, but rather how to peacefully co-exist in a way that not only we are happy with as professionals, but that also allows us to help out other people who might be a little, ahem, clueless regarding some things. Now, my question is, should we open a new forum thread regarding these suggestions?
And Henry, I don't know if you're still reading this or not, but: I agree, Kudoz does not a good translator make, but it sure as hell gets the translator work if they are still posting tons of questions after six months!
[Edited at 2007-09-27 01:41]
| | | | | Research too often not rewarded | Nov 10, 2007 |
....... then they choose the wrong option!
marlcurtis wrote:
The bottom line is, you are doing all the research for them while they expedite their translations...
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