| Stranica u temi: < [1 2] | KUDOZ "abusers" (askers): another suggestion Postavljač teme: Valery Kaminski
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| It could be a problem | Oct 24, 2007 |
Satto (Roberto) wrote:
Yaotl Altan wrote:
Ivana Kahle wrote:
This might seem a little bit off-topic, but how do you feel when you answer the question right (and get 3-4 peer agreements), but someone else gets the points?
I'm not jealous, just curious if this happens to another answerers.
Exactly. It happens very frequently and it has happened to me even with more than 7 or 8 agrees. I think sometimes people award Kudoz according to their friendship. Anyway, I fell happy participating, learning and teaching.
I recently saw a person handing out agrees only to people from her same country..how can a translator be so immature? I guess she thinks only people in her country know the language...
That's not always the case. I've sometimes chosen the less-obvious answers regardless of the number of agrees. It's obvious that the agree-system presents a big problem when the Domino-Effect takes over, one (usually the first) answer gets all the agrees even though it's not the best one. Besides, there are colleagues here that agree with every answer proposed just to get more BrowniZ.
Of course there are translators that only want the points and completely disregard what KudoZ are about, so they choose their friends' answers. But sometimes it's all about the context, what in most contexts might be the right answer, in other contexts is not acceptable for whatever reason. But some people take this as a personal attacks or make stupid and immature remarks like "Did you see the answer chosen?"
About Valery's suggestion, I also think it's not fair to basically work for this kind of users, but the solution proposed could even be worse than the problem. Like Terry said, it could draw many mediocre translators to participate in the system with their mediocre answers. I mean, if they're too lazy to do some research for themselves, they will certainly not do it for others.
Claudia
| | | | Yaotl Altan 
Meksiko
Local time: 17:52
Član (2006)
engleski na španjolski
+ ...
Satto (Roberto) wrote:
Yaotl Altan wrote:
Ivana Kahle wrote:
This might seem a little bit off-topic, but how do you feel when you answer the question right (and get 3-4 peer agreements), but someone else gets the points?
I'm not jelaous, just curious if this happens to another answerers.
Excatly. It happens very frequently and it has happened to me even with more than 7 or 8 agrees. I think sometimes people award Kudoz according to their friendship. Anyway, I fell happy participating, learning and teaching.
I recently saw a person handing out agrees only to people from her same country..how can a translator be so immature? I guess she thinks only people in her country know the language...
Yes!, that's another pattern sometmes shown in Kudoz. Maybe they have a strong concept of nationalism
| | | | Valery Kaminski
Bjelorusija
Local time: 02:52
engleski na ruski
+ ...
POKRETAČ TEME
Well, there seem to be two controversial opinions.
1. People are happy to answer questions just to help, no matter who those questions come from. They do not need the points.
2. The proposed change will shy away competent translators.
These look kind of mutually exclusive, don't they?
| | | | Andrea Riffo
Čile
Local time: 19:52
engleski na španjolski
+ ...
Well, I seem to remember a similar thread where someone suggested limiting the number of questions allowed per hour, which I thought was a pretty good middle-point.
A limit of 3 questions per hour would mean that a person could still use the maximum daily limit over a couple of hours, while at the same time:
(a) it would make it necessary to choose what is really urgent vs. what can be easily found in dictionaries
(b) it would avoid isolated questions by ot... See more Well, I seem to remember a similar thread where someone suggested limiting the number of questions allowed per hour, which I thought was a pretty good middle-point.
A limit of 3 questions per hour would mean that a person could still use the maximum daily limit over a couple of hours, while at the same time:
(a) it would make it necessary to choose what is really urgent vs. what can be easily found in dictionaries
(b) it would avoid isolated questions by other askers being buried by the onslaught of 10 questions is a row, as happens so frequently.
Andrea
[Edited at 2007-10-24 21:15] ▲ Collapse
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Gina W
Sjedinjene Američke Države
Local time: 19:52
Član (2003)
francuski na engleski
| Excellent post, Anne | Oct 24, 2007 |
Anne Koth wrote:
When you say "abuse" I assume you mean that these people could answer lots of Kudoz questions if they wanted to, but they don't as they just want to take, take, take, and not give anything back.
That might be true in some cases, but there are some other possibilities:
a) they are new to translation and have more questions than answers
b) they are afraid of making mistakes and having people sneer at them
c) they don't spend much time on Proz, or are just a bit slow and so, when they do look, or want to answer, someone else has always got there first.
d) they are very busy, so have lots of questions and little time to answer
If they are new, should they be punished for their current lack of knowledge?
If they are insecure, should we show them up by displaying how little they have contributed?
If they have little time, should the service they have paid for (if they have!) be restricted?
I guess you're talking about people who ask hundreds of questions before answering one themselves, but I think it will still be hard to find a system which can distinguish between the knowing abusers and the unintentionally unhelpful.
I've answered a few questions, but I'm in category c), and there seem to be some users who are permanently on Proz accumulating staggering amounts of points by answering all the questions, just leaving the hard ones to us slowcoaches. Maybe they should be restricted, to let others have a chance? 
Thank you for posting this.
I respectfully disagree with Valery's suggestion regarding changing the awarding of points. Also, when I first glanced at the title of this thread, it gave me the impression that abusers and askers are synonymous. Thank you, Anne, for pointing out that is not necessarily true - in fact, most of the time askers are NOT abusers.
| | | | Gina W
Sjedinjene Američke Države
Local time: 19:52
Član (2003)
francuski na engleski
| Good point, Claudia | Oct 25, 2007 |
Claudia Alvis wrote:
I've sometimes chosen the less-obvious answers regardless of the number of agrees. It's obvious that the agree-system presents a big problem when the Domino-Effect takes over, one (usually the first) answer gets all the agrees even though it's not the best one. Besides, there are colleagues here that agree with every answer proposed just to get more BrowniZ.
Of course there are translators that only want the points and completely disregard what KudoZ are about, so they choose their friends' answers. But sometimes it's all about the context, what in most contexts might be the right answer, in other contexts is not acceptable for whatever reason. But some people take this as a personal attacks or make stupid and immature remarks like "Did you see the answer chosen?"
Yes, the most popular answer is not always necessarily the best answer. I had one person apparently get upset that I had not chosen his/her answer with something like 9 agrees, since the answer I had chosen was actually posted AFTER all that. I had closed that particular question in something like 22 - 23 hours instead of 24 as it was late and I was going to bed, and the next day I found that the answerer with the many agrees posted here about how the 24-hour thing should be an absolute rule. It was obvious to me that the person didn't care about me or helping me, and was very offended that I had chosen another better answer, even though I very nicely thanked everyone - I guess my sincere thanks wasn't enough, instead the reaction was to criticize my timing.
And regarding the idea of choosing only answers posted by "friends", though there may be people who have done that, I am sure that this practice is MUCH less common than some people think.
| | | | | Agree with Anne | Oct 25, 2007 |
I think we need to be careful about judging people who ask a lot of questions. Some of them may just be natural "checkers" who need reassurance or help.
Remember, if they are freelancers they may be isolated and lack the support that in-house translators have. Some people don't mind translating alone and tuning other people out (which is my translation style) while others like to check not just the internet or dictionaries but other people. Some may need education on becoming be... See more I think we need to be careful about judging people who ask a lot of questions. Some of them may just be natural "checkers" who need reassurance or help.
Remember, if they are freelancers they may be isolated and lack the support that in-house translators have. Some people don't mind translating alone and tuning other people out (which is my translation style) while others like to check not just the internet or dictionaries but other people. Some may need education on becoming better researchers etc. Sort of looking for the mentorship they would get in-house on a large translation team - which is hard to come by on the "outside". Others may be tired on a particular day and need help.
Some users may be abusive but that's their lookout - living that way (always taking and never giving) catches up with you.
I've only been a paying member for a few months but sometimes the judgemental posts about people asking lots of questions have really put me off asking questions of my own. That's a part of the reason I've answered more than I've asked.... one of the other reasons is that I like helping others.
Posts like Anne's remind me that this is supposed to be a safe forum where I can get help with queries without feeling guilty or stupid. Thanks for that! ▲ Collapse
| | | | | limiting the number of question | Oct 25, 2007 |
Andrea Riffo wrote:
Well, I seem to remember a similar thread where someone suggested limiting the number of questions allowed per hour, which I thought was a pretty good middle-point.
A limit of 3 questions per hour would mean that a person could still use the maximum daily limit over a couple of hours, while at the same time:
(a) it would make it necessary to choose what is really urgent vs. what can be easily found in dictionaries
(b) it would avoid isolated questions by other askers being buried by the onslaught of 10 questions is a row, as happens so frequently.
I think Andrea was referring to my suggestion in
www.proz.com/post/684983#684983
which I posted fairly late on in the thread and wasn't taken up by anyone.
I am in favour of limiting the number of questions asked per hour to 3 or even 2. There have been another couple of incidences since then of people asking 5 or more questions in a very short time thus pushing individual questions from other people off the front page too quickly so that they have a much shorter prime exposure time. This means that projects with tight deadlines may need more planning.
Jill
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| Christine provides food for thought | Oct 25, 2007 |
Christine Andersen wrote:
KudoZ is a game of 'give and take' - and some players give more points by posting more questions than they answer. For some reason nobody objects half as much to those who answer a lot, but rarely post qestions 
Lots of site users practically never join in KudoZ at all, for whatever reasons.
Some spend more time in the discussion forums instead - and these are often valuable contributions to the site too, with practical advice and help with problems. But there is no points system for helping in the forums, so nobody counts!
Just think of the help with CAT tools, freely given, without points. These answerers spend a lot of time helping others too. I'm glad nobody insists that I should solve a Trados problem for someone else every time I look for advice there!
Even the 'off topic' contributions are in fact an important part of the site, providing light relief and food for thought that many of us do not get from office colleagues as we work at home.
There are times when we need help, and there are times when we can help others. The best thing about this site is that the help, once given, is freely available for all of us in the forums and the glossary. In fact we can all gain far more that way than we contribute.
I confess I've generally been one of those in favour of further restriction of Kudoz questions - but while I don't ask questions very often, I do use the term search function extensively and often find the answer I'm looking for in there. So other people who've asked (possibly lots of) questions in the past are making my life easier today. And that's not to mention the other help freely offered in the forums, as Christine also points out. I think I shall refrain from supporting further restrictions in future.
[Edited at 2007-10-25 10:13]
| | | | | Point of view of "a)" question poster | Oct 25, 2007 |
Anne Koth wrote:
That might be true in some cases, but there are some other possibilities:
a) they are new to translation and have more questions than answers
b) they are afraid of making mistakes and having people sneer at them
c) they don't spend much time on Proz, or are just a bit slow and so, when they do look, or want to answer, someone else has always got there first.
d) they are very busy, so have lots of questions and little time to answer
If they are new, should they be punished for their current lack of knowledge?
If they are insecure, should we show them up by displaying how little they have contributed?
If they have little time, should the service they have paid for (if they have!) be restricted?
Well, I should say that I actually have made more questions in the past than i have answered.
Of course I'm not proud of it, but I guess I belong to the a) section in Anne's chart.
Yes, I'm very new in the translation business, and I really enjoy it; I enjoy when I find a hard term and after long time of research I just find the perfect term myself. But if that is not the case, then I ask for some help to those who may actually have more experience or knowledge in that especific field.
Of course I do want to answer questions as well, but it is sometimes hard for me, and I rather not answering than just giving a random answer which may actually lead to a fals conclusion.
About limitations, well, I myself don't make all the questions I'm allowed to, but on the grounds of many of the things that have already been said I don't really agree with it.
| | | | Robert Forstag
Sjedinjene Američke Države
Local time: 19:52
španjolski na engleski
+ ...
| Show number of questions asked and total Kudoz points in pair | Oct 25, 2007 |
This really would be the best solution, and would eliminate the possiblity of unhelpful answers being offered by heavy users in order to improve their asked/answered ratios and/or avoid possible restrictions.
Bob
| | | | | Points awarded to other answerer | Nov 10, 2007 |
I have the same experience.
But I suspect that the "agrees" can also be a 'political' gesture in support of someone and against another answerer thereby confusing the Asker.
Too often an Asker just counts the number of agrees for one answerer without properly reading the convincing arguments of another answerer.
First I was upset but later this made me laugh because it only shows the knowledgeability of the Asker.
Ivana Kahle wrote:
This might seem a little bit off-topic, but how do you feel when you answer the question right (and get 3-4 peer agreements), but someone else gets the points?
I'm not jelaous, just curious if this happens to another answerers.
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