| Sidor om ämnet: < [1 2 3 4] | Who selects payment method/terms? Wrong paradigm on Proz job posting Trådens avsändare: José Henrique Lamensdorf
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Samuel Murray 
Nederländerna
Local time: 00:15
Medlem (2006)
Engelska till Afrikaans
+ ...
| Getting close, my answers | Oct 7, 2008 |
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote: Samuel Murray wrote:
So your suggestion is that an additional tickbox be added to the pricing info on the job submission, saying "These terms are absolutely non-negotiable" (by default not ticked). It sounds like a good suggestion. Submit it in the suggestion forum, and I'll +1 it. AFAIK this is the suggestion forum.
Yes it is, but your first post didn't contain any concrete suggestion and this thread contains several suggestions, and AFAIK a suggestion is likely taken more seriously by staff if it follows a tight "1 suggestion = 1 thread" format with very little off-topic banter. So my suggestion was to open a new thread with that suggestion.
If I lowered my price just for their asking, it would an admission of my attempted ripoff.
Well, I often do it. I say "my usual rate is X" and they say "oh, please can you do it for Y" and then I reply "sure, no problem". My initial offer is simply my estimation of what the job is worth, plus profit. If they want to offer something different, and I believe it is still fair, and will still result in a profit for me, I can in good conscience accept their lowered rate even though they offered no concessions whatsoever.
Samuel Murray wrote:
The question is... should this be labelled "Preferred payment method" or "Accepted payment method"? Because a payment method that is accepted is not necessarily preferred. What would you consider more important to say/ask (if you were to imagine yourself a client) -- preferred or accepted payment method. One must start from the accepted, and later settled on the preferred. If one method is not accepted for unmitigating reasons, noting will make it preferred.
On the other hand, if the payment methods selected are the only ones accepted, it may simply be because the client is unfamiliar with those methods, and not necessarily because the client had determined that it is not possible to use those methods. If such a client chooses only some methods, and they arelabelled 'accepted payment methods', translators using the other methods might refrain from quoting on the job, on a misconception that their methods are unacceptable.
But to continue our drive for improvement, I would suggest it be labelled "preferred" but that it should be easy for clients to select more than one option. I myself am a familiar with Ctrl+click fields, but is it really safe to assume that most people know how to select more than one option in such a widget?
I don't know how much it costs these companies, but here in Brazil ... several drugstore chains, when you pay with a credit card, they offer you to break the total in three installments at no interest surcharge. Of course anyone will take that offer.
We have a very similar thing in ZA as well. You can pay it all at once or you can pay it in six installments over a period of six months. The vendor will ask "budget or straight?" (budget being the six-month option). Personally I always choose straight because the budget option leads to more confusing credit card statements.
So if Proz had a field where the job poster had to type in the number of days after delivery/invoice they would pay, it would probably be different.
What you're saying there is already the case -- the job poster has to fill in the number of days. The default is zero. If we make the default 30, you'll have complaints from other translators saying that ProZ.com promotes delayed payment.
| | | | | Some history / suggestion | Oct 7, 2008 |
I do not disagree with anything said in this thread. However, I have been a ProZ user and/or member for a long time and I wanted to bring up a little history. Eight years ago, buyers/outsourcers did not specify the rate. Instead, they simply posted a job and users/members made a bid or quote for the job (or in other words, translators did specify their own rate as it should be). Unfortunately, since these "bids" were public, people bid lower and lower in what resembled a reverse auction. Example... See more I do not disagree with anything said in this thread. However, I have been a ProZ user and/or member for a long time and I wanted to bring up a little history. Eight years ago, buyers/outsourcers did not specify the rate. Instead, they simply posted a job and users/members made a bid or quote for the job (or in other words, translators did specify their own rate as it should be). Unfortunately, since these "bids" were public, people bid lower and lower in what resembled a reverse auction. Example: I bid .10, John bids .095 cents, Mary bids .08, etc. until we are at .03 / .04. There were numerous threads about how to stop these people from quoting so low, how could they afford to charge so little, they are not professionals, etc.
After much outcry, ProZ made the decision to keep all job quotes private in the hope that not being able to see the quotes from other users, people would quote higher. It was at that point, perhaps inundated by a large number of now higher quotes, that outsourcers began adding things such as "best rates", etc. to their job requests.
ProZ is not the reason for low rates as I suppose there always were people willing to work for less, outsourcers happy to pay less and clients looking for a bargain. The problem was that in the past, it was not so easy for these people to get together and when they did, you did not hear about it because there was no internet and no e-mail. If you charged .10 a word and a client could only pay .05 a word, they simply did not telephone you or did not have the job translated at all. However, now that we have the internet, we are more aware of this side of the industry and it is easier for people working on the cheap end of the market to connect.
I too believe that we should set our own rates and that all indications of price and price-related statements (best rates) should not be permitted in quotes. However, in practice, this would be difficult to implement as another way to "beat the system" could always be found. In addition, we should carefully consider the impact this would have because (like before) we would be solving one problem only to create another. Would outsourcers who are only willing to pay .03 and who now suddenly receive 250 quotes for .10, raise their rates - probably not. Will translators stop quoting low rates because they are beginners or because they have low self-esteem or because they are desperate - probably not.
No solution will please everyone, but I think that some sort of mechanism needs to be implemented. My suggestion would be to automatically insert the average rate (and final price) into each job posting in a way that would be obvious and make some impact. So jobs would look something like this: (Rate information provided on the job posting page (for outsourcers who request quotes by e-mail) AND in a pop-up window when you hit "submit a quote"):
Sample Job Posting:
Language Pair: German to English
(all the current information)
Unfortunately, we can only pay .04 a word or $300 for this project.
Deadline: October 8, 2007
BEFORE YOU QUOTE:
Rate: The average rate on ProZ for German to English translators in this field would be .11 a word or $825.00.
Rush Work: This job exceeds the average number of words per day of ....... therefore you may wish to consider the addition of a rush rate.
The average rush rate on ProZ for German to English translation in this field would be .14 a word or $1050.
This is merely an example, but the would-be translator is now armed with the knowledge that he/she can accept the company's terms and complete the job for $300, but that he/she is giving the company a huge deal.
In addition, the outsourcer, outsiders, new and potential translators, other outsourcers, or anyone viewing this information would not get the impression that the rate specified or requested by the outsourcer is standard by any means even if an outsourcer requested "best rates", etc.
Of course, an outsourcer would have the option of offering to pay MORE than the average rate as an incentive.
The only problem would be how to prevent outsourcers from asking translators to accept what they know is a low rate "just this once" with the promise that more work will come later at a better rate (yah, sure).
Whatever solution is implemented, it should be flexible because companies paying low rates have been preying on translators and using this site as a profit-making feeding ground for a long time and there will be much resistance and attempts to circumvent any such efforts.
[Edited at 2008-10-07 21:25] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Summing it all up | Oct 7, 2008 |
Great ideas, Jeff!
However I went back to my original post and, though I did mention rates, it was not about them, rather around them: the payment method/terms.
So, why is the payment method a problem?
Let's examine a few:
- PayPal does not reach every country on the receiving end, mostly because of local government restrictions.
- Moneygram and Western Union are intended for people (not companies) send... See more Great ideas, Jeff!
However I went back to my original post and, though I did mention rates, it was not about them, rather around them: the payment method/terms.
So, why is the payment method a problem?
Let's examine a few:
- PayPal does not reach every country on the receiving end, mostly because of local government restrictions.
- Moneygram and Western Union are intended for people (not companies) sending money to people (ditto), usually to support relatives living abroad. So a translation agency PM has to grab the cash and physically go to some office of theirs.
- Ikobo has severe and low limits on the sending end, it takes a lot of red tape to raise them. The point is that the receiver draws cash from a Visa Plus ATM, so if the sending involved any fraud, chargeback is quite difficult, if at all possible.
- Xoom serves only 30+ countries.
- Moneybookers has been thoroughly badmouthed on another thread here, no need for me to add insult to that injury.
- Foregn checks and wire transfers cause varied complexity problems, depending on where they come from, where they land, and the currency on them. Checks may take a whale of time to clear in some places.
If anyone searches the fora here on Proz, they will find several queries on how a translator in Slobovia can get paid by a client in Oomphland. When a translator cannot get paid for it for reasons beyond their control, it's foolish for them to take a job, regardless of rates paid. So it's not about rates.
The suggestion here would be for Proz to add a flexible "payment methods" feature. I mean flexible, because it should allow for the inclusion of new ones, as they get suggested by users. This should work for both job posters and freelancers. At some time in the negotiation, there would be a computer-driven matching of these payment systems. However the list of methods deemed "possible" by the job poster would appear automatically (with manual override) on the ad. The more systems they can pay with, the more candidates they will get.
Now about payment terms
Considering what I learned from fellow Prozians on this thread, especially about negotiation, my conclusion is that there is only one simple thing missing on the online bidding form: a field for the bidding translator to state their intended payment term.
The translator may state their price/rate, but there is no space to specify the intended payment term (other than in the text). This is what makes the job poster's payment term "final" unless challenged, somewhat constraining the translator's right to make a counter-proposal.
[Edited at 2008-10-07 23:31] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Samuel Murray
Nederländerna
Local time: 00:15
Medlem (2006)
Engelska till Afrikaans
+ ...
| At the risk of repeating myself... | Oct 8, 2008 |
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
The translator may state their price/rate, but there is no space to specify the intended payment term (other than in the text). This is what makes the job poster's payment term "final" unless challenged...
I don't follow this logic.
My conclusion is that there is only one simple thing missing on the online bidding form: a field for the bidding translator to state their intended payment term.
I understand, but I think one should not make the process too complex. And payment methods have many, many variables. At present, the only payment variable a translator can filter notifications on, is the rate or price. This is a simple thing to filter on. But payment methods and days of payment would result in complex matrixes of variables that may do more harm than good.
Suppose the translator indicates that he wants payment 30 days after end of month in which invoice was submitted. Now suppose the client's payment offer is payment 45 days after invoice was submitted. Would you regard the client's payment method in this case compatible or incompatible with the translators'? It is impossible to tell. If the invoice is submitted on the 14th of the month, they are compatible. If the invoice is submitted on the 16th of the month, they are incompatible. Should the translator in this case receive notification of the job or not? The rather-send-me-more-mails type of translators (such as myself) would want it, but the rather-send-me-fewer-mails type of translators (such as yourself) would specifically not want it.
Or suppose a translator accepts wire transfers only if a certain minimum rate applies, but accepts PayPal only if a certain other minimum rate applies? This could quite possibly happen, because translators pay different fees for different methods in different countries. I myself charge two different minimum rates, one for wire transfers and one for Moneybookers payments. I accept both, but I penalise one.
For this reason I don't think it is feasible to let translators filter job notifications on payment terms. What I do think is feasible, is if translators can indicate these terms in a formalised manner on their profiles (eg in the same way it is done on the jobs posting), so that jobs posters can filter on it when they do directory searches.
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Williamson
Storbritannien
Local time: 23:15
Flamländska till Engelska
+ ...
| Have google.com: will translate | Oct 8, 2008 |
Tried the same for Dutch and French. Very understandable texts which need a few corrections.
With a part of the world being a credit-driven economy (UK, US) steering towards bankruptcy of the system and the other side low price economy (China is booming due to cheap labour) the future for translators does not look so bright. Within 2 or more years, google translate will change the translator landscape and the proz.com landscape: Job offer: review text translated by Googletranslate ... See more Tried the same for Dutch and French. Very understandable texts which need a few corrections.
With a part of the world being a credit-driven economy (UK, US) steering towards bankruptcy of the system and the other side low price economy (China is booming due to cheap labour) the future for translators does not look so bright. Within 2 or more years, google translate will change the translator landscape and the proz.com landscape: Job offer: review text translated by Googletranslate at 0.02 cts, whatever its contents. In that scenario, specialisation will not be an antidote for those low rates, given that the nature of the task will have changed. Who will want to pay 0.12 if a machine can do the translation and a native specialised in the subject matter can correct the translation. Tagline: instead of " Have Trados, will translate": have "googletranslate, will translate".
Of course, you could try to become overnight freelance programmer or overnight interpreter, but I doubt whether that would work.
Back on topic: As for the bidding system: What is it purpose and who benefits from it? Why not abolish it?
[Edited at 2008-10-08 13:44] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Back off topic, but... | Oct 8, 2008 |
Jeff Whittaker said:
My suggestion would be to automatically insert the average rate (and final price) into each job posting in a way that would be obvious and make some impact. So jobs would look something like this: (Rate information provided on the job posting page (for outsourcers who request quotes by e-mail) AND in a pop-up window when you hit "submit a quote"):
Sample Job Posting:
Language Pair: German to English
(all the current information)
Unfortunately, we can only pay .04 a word or $300 for this project.
Deadline: October 8, 2007
BEFORE YOU QUOTE:
Rate: The average rate on ProZ.com for German to English translators in this field would be .11 a word or $825.00.
Rush Work: This job exceeds the average number of words per day of ....... therefore you may wish to consider the addition of a rush rate.
The average rush rate on ProZ.com for German to English translation in this field would be .14 a word or $1050.
This is merely an example, but the would-be translator is now armed with the knowledge that he/she can accept the company's terms and complete the job for $300, but that he/she is giving the company a huge deal.
In addition, the outsourcer, outsiders, new and potential translators, other outsourcers, or anyone viewing this information would not get the impression that the rate specified or requested by the outsourcer is standard by any means even if an outsourcer requested "best rates", etc.
This, IMO, is a brilliant suggestion. It's long been lamented here and elsewhere that Proz.com is driving prices down. How true this is I'm not convinced, as there's a parallel lament to the effect that you only find amateurs on Proz - so there seems to be a self-reinforcing paradigm here (FWIW, I still have plenty of professional, well-paying agencies contacting me through my profile here, or I'd be long gone...)
Anyway, whatever the truth of the matter, I think Jeff's suggestion would go a long way to resolve the perceived problem without putting undue pressure on either outsourcer or vendor and without any hint of price fixing.
| | | | Samuel Murray
Nederländerna
Local time: 00:15
Medlem (2006)
Engelska till Afrikaans
+ ...
| Back off-topic | Oct 8, 2008 |
Marie-Hélène Hayles wrote: Jeff Whittaker said:
My suggestion would be... This, IMO, is a brilliant suggestion.
I have serious doubts about it. I would not support it. Perhaps Jeff can post it in a separate thread where it would be ontopic, and you and I can battle it out
| | | | | Still off-topic | Oct 8, 2008 |
Samuel Murray wrote: Marie-Hélène Hayles wrote: Jeff Whittaker said:
My suggestion would be... This, IMO, is a brilliant suggestion. I have serious doubts about it. I would not support it. Perhaps Jeff can post it in a separate thread where it would be ontopic, and you and I can battle it out
I like battling things out with you Samuel, we don't always agree but you always have an interesting and valid point of view .
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