| Stranica u temi: < [1 2 3 4 5] > | Why are we doing free translations? Postavljač teme: Jennifer Baker
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gianfranco 
Brazil
Local time: 17:43
Član (2001)
engleski na talijanski
+ ...
| We will improve the KudoZ sistem but not remove it | Oct 15, 2004 |
Jussara Simoes wrote:
...let's extinguish KudoZ and see who'll stay, who'll ask, and who'll answer the questions. It's as simple as that.
...
Dear Jussara,
I've been following this discussion with attention, as all opinions are important for us. I would like to chip in to answer to your latest proposal, as quoted above.
I believe that your proposal is too risky for a trial. The KudoZ system is arguably the most efficient, popular and successful available in all translation venues to exchange terminology and linguistic advice.
We are aware of all small and big problems, discuss them and listen to the users.
Many members dislike the points system and many appreciate and enjoy it. Also, many use it 'despite' of some problems, and contribute with constructive ideas to improve them.
We tend to improve in small steps rather than 'destroy', the site has implemented many small and gradual improvements, testing the waters, and occasionally withdrawning some features. Surely we are not removing the points system just to see 'how it goes...'.
You can suggest lightly a drastic move as you have not invested time in creating it. If it doesn't work any more, you have lost nothing. We simply cannot take this risk.
Thank you for your personal views, but consider the opinion of many thousand of other users.
Gianfranco
ProZ.com Team
| | | | Jussara Simoes (X)
Brazil
Local time: 18:43
engleski na portugalski
+ ...
| Who has not invested time, paleface? | Oct 15, 2004 |
Gianfranco Manca wrote:
>>You can suggest lightly a drastic move as you have not invested time in creating it. If it doesn't work any more, you have lost nothing. We simply cannot take this risk.
Gianfranco
ProZ.com Team
Gianfranco,
I've already spent lots of Browniez through the years, but I still have 1117. How do you think I earned those browniz? Do you think that was not investing my time on ProZ?
Apparently your registration # here is 12340, isn't it? My registration # is 136, have you noticed? When you did not even dream of working for ProZ I was here working for free, not even knowing I was going to be awarded BrowniZ. So, my dear, please try and find out who you are accusing of not having "invested time in creating it". I was here building ProZ in the beginning. Where were you?
Look at how I earned just one part of my Browniz:
Translation of site text
Texts translated x 3 per word 419 1257
Texts checked x 1 per word 348 348
Unfortunatelly, after being far from Proz for almost 4 years, I came back and found out that the Portuguese translation of the site was completely modified -- for worse.
I came back after all these years because I believed a friend when he said ProZ had improved a lot. To whom, paleface? Where are the great professionals that were here in the beginning and disappeared? I know dozens of translators (only working in my pair of languages -- if I extend it to other pairs, the numbers will grow to hundreds) that never came back and won't come back.
Only KudoZ Hunters stay here and reply at one minute of posting. Try and cut their Kudoz for a while to see what happens. When Kudoz are gone, the worst translators will be gone too; at least the majority of them.
| | | | gianfranco
Brazil
Local time: 17:43
Član (2001)
engleski na talijanski
+ ...
| You have misunderstood my statement | Oct 15, 2004 |
Jussara Simoes wrote:
Who has not invested time, paleface?
...
Apparently your registration # here is 12340, isn't it?
My registration # is 136, have you noticed?
...
I came back after all these years because I believed a friend when he said ProZ had improved a lot. To whom, paleface?
Uh?!?,
Jussara,
I answer despite of your increasingly raucous and unpleasant tones.
I don't take it personally, and the fact that you have been one of the first members to register doesn't give you the right to address anyone, I mean "anyone", not even the latest person to join the site, with that tone.
Jussara Simoes wrote:
...
Unfortunatelly, after being far from Proz for almost 4 years, I came back...
I arrived in ProZ.com 'only' in May 2001, and I have never left.
In truth, you have misunderstood my statement.
I wasn't referring to my work for the site. Not at all.
I was saying that the site founder and many other persons have invested a lot in the current system and cannot scrap it lightly, as you suggest, to see if a new method will work, or not work...
I know for sure that the efforts to improve will continue, with many small and big changes, and always a lot of careful thought before implementing them.
Regards,
Gianfranco
ProZ.com Team
| | | | Jussara Simoes (X)
Brazil
Local time: 18:43
engleski na portugalski
+ ...
| and you misunderstood me too | Oct 15, 2004 |
Or else I may have not expressed myself well because my native language is not English.
I am not talking about experimenting, I'm suggesting a complete facelift: down with Kudoz and Browniez -- forever. That's simply it. What is raucous? Any opinion that does not agree with yours? I am sorry, but not everybody will agree with everybody, it's a fact of life.
This is my last post on this thread. I have nothing new to say because I've already said what I had to say.... See more Or else I may have not expressed myself well because my native language is not English.
I am not talking about experimenting, I'm suggesting a complete facelift: down with Kudoz and Browniez -- forever. That's simply it. What is raucous? Any opinion that does not agree with yours? I am sorry, but not everybody will agree with everybody, it's a fact of life.
This is my last post on this thread. I have nothing new to say because I've already said what I had to say. I'd gladly invest more time on ProZ, free of charge, but also free of Kudoz and Browniz or BigMacs, the way I did in the beginning (I knew about the Browniz after I received them, not before, because I was working for my peers, not for Kudoz, I don't need them). ▲ Collapse
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gianfranco
Brazil
Local time: 17:43
Član (2001)
engleski na talijanski
+ ...
| I was under the impression... | Oct 15, 2004 |
Jussara Simoes wrote:
...
I am not talking about experimenting, I'm suggesting a complete facelift: down with Kudoz and Browniez -- forever.
That's simply it.
Of course, if such change were implemented and, let's say afer 3-6 months they don't work, it will need to be restored.
In that sense, it would be experimental and not 'for ever'. We have implemented often changes and later withdrawn them, when they did not work as intended or we received negative feedback from the users.
Jussara Simoes wrote:
...
What is raucous? Any opinion that does not agree with yours?
I am sorry, but not everybody will agree with everybody, it's a fact of life.
I was under the impression that 'paleface' was not exactly friendly. As a matter of fact I'm quite dark skinned, but I don't see how adding 'paleface' twice to your opinions has added any value to them.
And your opinion is welcome, even if we disagree. The whole point is to discuss without calling names or adding unnecessary attributes...
Jussara Simoes wrote:
...
This is my last post on this thread. I have nothing new to say because I've already said what I had to say. I'd gladly invest more time on ProZ, free of charge, but also free of Kudoz and Browniz or BigMacs, the way I did in the beginning (I knew about the Browniz after I received them, not before, because I was working for my peers, not for Kudoz, I don't need them).
The KudoZ area is primarily a service to exchange terminology advice, and all the users appreciate that. The KudoZ points are a by-product that may be used as an indicator of expertise, in a language pair and field of specialization. This is in addition to all usual methods, CV, profile, etc...
BrowniZ points are awarded in exchange for contributions to the site content, and they are used by many members to obtain a discount on the paid membership.
It is a design/marketing choice, it may not appeal to everybody, and you not the only one, but undoubtly the system works and it makes sense. There is also space for improvement, and we are working on it, taking into account all voices expressed primarily in these forums.
Regards,
Gianfranco
ProZ.com Team
| | | | tazdog (X)
Španjolska
Local time: 21:43
španjolski na engleski
+ ...
| about Kudoz, professionalism and the glossaries... | Oct 15, 2004 |
Personally, I would use "belligerent" to describe the tone this discussion has taken, and the use of the word "paleface" strikes me as offensive, to say the least.
I think it's extremely mistaken and unfair to jump to the conclusion that anyone who answers Kudoz questions with the points system lacks professionalism, as has been alleged ("Professionalism and childish things as KudoZ points are incompatible things)." I'll speak for myself when I say that I like answering questions, ... See more Personally, I would use "belligerent" to describe the tone this discussion has taken, and the use of the word "paleface" strikes me as offensive, to say the least.
I think it's extremely mistaken and unfair to jump to the conclusion that anyone who answers Kudoz questions with the points system lacks professionalism, as has been alleged ("Professionalism and childish things as KudoZ points are incompatible things)." I'll speak for myself when I say that I like answering questions, and consider the points to be a kind of recognition although not the be-all and end-all, and I don't feel ashamed of myself for saying so, nor any less of a professional. However, that doesn't make me a "Kudoz hunter," either (even on the rare-ish occasions when I post an answer in the first minute after the question appears). By the same token, I won't slit my wrists if the points are abolished; I participate on other lists where terminology questions are routine, and contribute whenever I think I can.
If I think someone is abusing the system by posting too many questions at once (20+), I contact a moderator. If I think someone is taking the easy way out by consistently posting things they could probably have found on their own without too much effort, I just don't answer ANY questions posted by that particular individual. If someone else wants to do the work for those people, that's their problem (and judging by the answers some of these people give, it's the asker's problem, too!) I pass on the easy questions as well--no time for that.
As far as the glossaries are concerned, I agree that some cleanup is needed. However, I recently asked a moderator to change a glossary entry (an obvious case of the blind leading the blind) and I was told that the mods had "instructions not to [modify the glossary entry] - people are simply going to have to read the whole page." I added a post-grading note to the question (and HEY! not even a chance for points since the question was closed!) with the correct answer, but evidently anyone who doesn't open up the page and relies solely on the entry on the search page will get a bum steer. (Of course, I think most responsible translators will look at the actual question and the answers proposed; I always do, anyway.) ▲ Collapse
| | | | Jussara Simoes (X)
Brazil
Local time: 18:43
engleski na portugalski
+ ...
| calling names? | Oct 15, 2004 |
>>And your opinion is welcome, even if we disagree. The whole point is to discuss without calling names or adding unnecessary attributes...
We must have different opinions about what calling names is, sir.
>> The KudoZ area is primarily a service to exchange terminology advice, and all the users appreciate that.
I'd appreciate if there were no points, but pure and simple camaraderie among colleagues, among professionals, the way it has been happening for s... See more >>And your opinion is welcome, even if we disagree. The whole point is to discuss without calling names or adding unnecessary attributes...
We must have different opinions about what calling names is, sir.
>> The KudoZ area is primarily a service to exchange terminology advice, and all the users appreciate that.
I'd appreciate if there were no points, but pure and simple camaraderie among colleagues, among professionals, the way it has been happening for some 17 years on Lantra, for example. A simple thank you would not give birth to the Kudoz Hunters phenomenon. Lantra is doing well without bells and whistles, or should I say sound and fury? Or should I apologize for that too? Or am I calling names again?
BTW, cara pálida is a humorous term in my culture, and it has always been used as a humorous remark. I'm sorry if the PC trends have turned it into a monster in your culture. I learnt it from an old joke whose characters were the Lone Ranger and Tonto, but then again maybe I'm too old.
>> The KudoZ points are a by-product that may be used as an indicator of expertise, in a language pair and field of specialization. This is in addition to all usual methods, CV, profile, etc...
Nope. This is only an addition for those who have nothing to do besides hunting Kudoz. And the abusers benefit from that, because they take jobs above their expertise and ask easy questions (in that expertise) labeling them as PRO questions. The Kudoz Hunters love those easy questions and make their thousands of Kudoz. What kind of expertise can be measured by that? Expertise in being jobless?
A few days ago a Brazilian translator asked 17 Kudoz questions at the same time. It's all too common in En>Pt Kudoz Questions. Don't you think it's an abuse? And do you think those questions went unanswered (as they deserved to go)? Nope! They were all answered by the same old kudoz hunters.
>> BrowniZ points are awarded in exchange for contributions to the site content, and they are used by many members to obtain a discount on the paid membership.
If I uploaded all my glossaries, I'd be a Browniz millionaire, but I don't agree with this system, and I'd rather upload them for free. I repeat: I'd gladly contribute for solidarity, for camaraderie. If I were to exchange my contributions for something, I'd exchange them for money. I don't work for peanuts, bigmacs or any other kind of food. I can do voluntary work, but I'll not work for virtual little cute junk food.
>>It is a design/marketing choice, it may not appeal to everybody, and you not the only one, but undoubtly the system works and it makes sense.
It would make sense if there were not translators with 5,000 questions asked and only 10 questions answered. And vice-versa. Is this your idea of fairness? It's not mine. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Claudia Iglesias
Čile
Local time: 17:43
Član (2002)
španjolski na francuski
+ ...
| Thanks for sharing your views, Cindy | Oct 15, 2004 |
I'd like just to comment one point:
However, I recently asked a moderator to change a glossary entry (an obvious case of the blind leading the blind) and I was told that the mods had "instructions not to [modify the glossary entry] - people are simply going to have to read the whole page." I added a post-grading note to the question (and HEY! not even a chance for points since the question was closed!) with the correct answer, but evidently anyone who doesn't open up the page and relies solely on the entry on the search page will get a bum steer. (Of course, I think most responsible translators will look at the actual question and the answers proposed; I always do, anyway.)
There are two different things, the selected answer and the glossary entry.
Nobody can make an asker change his mind about the chosen answer, in spite of agrees, opinions or whatever, this is a kudoz rule. Let's say that the question "belongs" to the asker. But the glossary belongs to the community, and the entry can be changed if there's agreement or when it seems that no linguistic discussion about it is necessary.
I often accept to change the glossary entry when I'm asked to, but I remember twice that I didn't, one time it was because my knowledge wasn't enough to accept the new suggestion, so I added this suggestion as a new answer, and the other one I thought that this needed some further discussion and that even that way we wouldn't all agree on that answer, so I added too, as another possibility.
We all know that sometimes more than one answer is correct, and in these cases, particularly with those questions that I have closely followed like my own, I make a glossary entry with all the good answers.
I suppose that the moderator you contacted thought that adding a new answer was the best solution, but adding another possibility to the glossary is another one too, but there must be consensus.
Thanks for contributing to make the system and the resources better.
Claudia
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J. Leo (X)
Local time: 21:43
nizozemski na engleski
+ ...
| Your English is fine. Your dedication is clear. Your passion is refreshing. | Oct 15, 2004 |
Jussara Simoes wrote:
Or else I may have not expressed myself well because my native language is not English.
I am not talking about experimenting, I'm suggesting a complete facelift: down with Kudoz and Browniez -- forever. That's simply it. What is raucous? Any opinion that does not agree with yours? I am sorry, but not everybody will agree with everybody, it's a fact of life.
This is my last post on this thread. I have nothing new to say because I've already said what I had to say. I'd gladly invest more time on ProZ, free of charge, but also free of Kudoz and Browniz or BigMacs, the way I did in the beginning (I knew about the Browniz after I received them, not before, because I was working for my peers, not for Kudoz, I don't need them).
Hello Jussara,
I've been following this thread since it started (17 March 2004). I haven't participated in this discussion, because much of what I would contribute has already been mentioned. I refer to the first page of this thread where other members have outlined the diverse motivations that appeal to different ProZ members. But still, here I am, simply because it seems that you might leave, and that would be a shame.
I'm not a member of your language pair, so I don't know what's going on there. It seems to occur in other language pairs too. I'm only happy that the Dutch-English participants keep the mood professional: answers are posed, disagreements are explained, nuances are added, points are appropriately rewarded. Professionalism does not include emotions. Of course, some will argue with this. In business there is an exchange between asker and provider. Emotions belong more in the private domain. Yes, we're all human, but then one must just use this to learn their boundary and see if that's what others are in the market for. My experience shows that not many are in the market for emotions. Benefit of the doubt is perhaps a universal approach to kindness, no matter what culture one might come from. I say this because the (somewhat annoying) point-grabbers are obviously occupied with something other than what you find appropriate. Not much can be done about that, so it seems. I choose to ignore it, but am cautioned about the motivation behind it. This dynamic is not exclusive to the ProZ situation.
I have been disturbed by some of the forum threads that address the demeanor, ettiquete, competition and 'anthropological jungle' behavior that sometimes appears among our fellow members. This seems to be yet another mirror of what is going on in our world. It's also part of business, unfortunately. I don't depend on translation for my daily bread, so ProZ has another meaning for me. I'm a psychologist, which means I see these interactions from that empirical perspective.
One of the things about ProZ (and translation in general) that appeals to me is being in the company of people who are forced to think beyond their own cultural perspective. One can't avoid this when being multi-lingual. It changes your brain when you broaden your cognitive 'package' of linguistic knowledge. We all know that you need to understand a culture in order to deeply understand another language. It adds an interesting dimension to the business of translation when a polarized world desperately requires more clarity among the diversely wide spectrum of cultures, from ALL corners of the world. ProZ is a microcosim of our world, wouldn't you say?
I admit it, I am translating my perception of the 20th century, albeit Western, ideology that brought me to psychology in the first place. In my field, clear communication, when dealing with another person's life, is a minimum requirement. I want to move from the verbal word to the written word.
I, like you, am not here for points either. I joined ProZ to challenge and confront myself with my strengths and weaknesses with my language pair, and have not always been happy with what I've learned about myself. I took a backseat and have used ProZ as a learning tool. In exchange, I try to contribute to ProZ when a question about psychology is posed, or when a regional nuance might be called for. In addition to that, when a question is posed, I don't just think about what the asker might need. Sometimes there are better answers given, but when building a glossary, there might be someone in the future needing a connotation that wasn't necessary during the initially posed question. Some may find this type of answer superfluous. Glossary-searcher X in 2006 might need a New York version of a UK term, or a different perspective on a specific psychological diagnosis. Do others find my response unprofessional or irrelevant? Yes. But then, what does that say about their myopic use of this recorded body of language?
Your English is fine:
There will always be misunderstandings when communicating in International English. We should always first give the benefit of the doubt when someone is communicating in a second language. After 14 years in the Netherlands, I couldn't count the number of times that the Dutch have politely interpreted the gist and intention of my use of Dutch. Hartelijk bedankt van een Medelander. The States may just have had the longest history with International English, I'm not sure. Although I do remember the tears my Sicilian-immigrant grandmother shead when she told me how her English was laughed at some 80 years ago, which kept her away from school as a young girl.
There are some ProZ members who are reading my English now, who will undoubtedly be rewording my entry and correcting my grammar. All one can do about this is to be careful that, when tickling the keyboard, one is clear about one's intention.
I found it interesting how you interpreted Nancy Lynn's comment "C'mon, are you really in competition with this individual?" When I read it, I understood her intention. Understanding this nuance of another language is exactly what might make International English a Tower of Babel, which requires the purists to give the benefit of the doubt and requires the International English speaker to see it as a supplement to their use of their second language. It's an opportunity, not always an attack.
Your dedication is clear:
You've made many entries and have presented good arguments about what bothers your here at ProZ. This is great. Some will find you as annoying as you (and I) find point-grabbers. Move on and offer your knowledge to others who will be glad to receive what it is that you have to offer. Be careful about criticism and take some things with a grain of salt. Of course this takes patience and only you can dose the amount of time you want to offer. I just wish that translators in general could see their responsibility to clear international communication as a bridge towards something other than just their wallet. Not that I'm accusing you of that! But if we can't interact with a sense of connecting with our fellow-man/woman/person (what's PC these days), then how can we be so critical of the idiots who are running our world today?
Your passion is refreshing:
I don't have anything to say about that except that I hope you're passion isn't fueled only by anger. Judging by some of the responses in this thread, it seems like a practical problem, the use of points at ProZ, is a hot issue. I don't live off of points or BigMacs. Success to those that do. Passion for your work is real gold.
Come on people, there's certainly enough aggression in this world. Is it professional to be using our product CLEAR COMMUNICATION in such a manner that we need to throw digital stones at each other?
My coffee pot has just called me to the kitchen. Have a nice day
| | | | two2tango
Argentina
Local time: 17:43
Član
engleski na španjolski
+ ...
| Are we all KudoZ hunters? | Oct 15, 2004 |
Jussara Simoes wrote:
I came back after all these years because I believed a friend when he said ProZ had improved a lot. To whom, paleface? Where are the great professionals that were here in the beginning and disappeared? I know dozens of translators (only working in my pair of languages -- if I extend it to other pairs, the numbers will grow to hundreds) that never came back and won't come back.
Only KudoZ Hunters stay here and reply at one minute of posting. Try and cut their Kudoz for a while to see what happens. When Kudoz are gone, the worst translators will be gone too; at least the majority of them.
So you came early, then went away for four years and then decided to come back, and you have already found out that "only KudoZ Hunters stay here". The obvious implication is that this includes me and the rest of the current active members. I find this comment offensive.
ProZ.com is a great site, and it is very open to improvements and new ideas. There are lots of new things being tested or evaluated or implemented all the time.
But I personally feel uneasy with someone who comes out of the blue, boldly announces that she knows better than the rest, raises the flag of the lone professional in a sea of unprofessional KudoZ hunters, and demands immediate and wide changes of a successful site.
Just a personal opinion.
Enrique Cavalitto
| | | | Jussara Simoes (X)
Brazil
Local time: 18:43
engleski na portugalski
+ ...
| Do you know what I think is offensive? | Oct 15, 2004 |
two2tango wrote:
So you came early, then went away for four years and then decided to come back, and you have already found out that "only KudoZ Hunters stay here". The obvious implication is that this includes me and the rest of the current active members. I find this comment offensive.
This is what I think is offensive:
Zulu>English
Tech/Engineering
Answers given: 1
Date Term asked Answer provided Points Glossary
Aug 12 2000 zulu Zulu 4 Enter
And it did not change in the last four years.
Mar 30 (2004)
did him good to hear le hizo bien escuchar 4 OK
I was not going to write here any longer, but I can't believe what I see.
But I personally feel uneasy with someone who comes out of the blue, boldly announces that she knows better than the rest, raises the flag of the lone professional in a sea of unprofessional KudoZ hunters, and demands immediate and wide changes of a successful site.
Just a personal opinion.
Enrique Cavalitto
All opinions are personal.
I don't know better than the rest. I have simply noticed that camaraderie is dead here at ProZ.
And I also thank James Caulfield for his lovely email. I haven't decided whether I'll stay around, but I don't think I will. When KudoZ points are more important than camaraderie, when nobody is ready to help their colleagues just for the heck of it, but will do it only for points or peanuts or sandwiches, then I don't think there's much that can be done here.
| | | | gianfranco
Brazil
Local time: 17:43
Član (2001)
engleski na talijanski
+ ...
| Camaraderie is not dead | Oct 15, 2004 |
Dear Jussara,
Jussara Simoes wrote:
I have simply noticed that camaraderie is dead here at ProZ.
It is not. Your remarks are again and objectively unfair.
Jussara Simoes wrote:
...When KudoZ points are more important than camaraderie, when nobody is ready to help their colleagues just for the heck of it, but will do it only for points or peanuts or sandwiches, then I don't think there's much that can be done here.
This is absolutely not the reality of the KudoZ community, as you depict it. Moreover, the wrong attitude that you so much dislike, is also condemned by the site as a whole, its founder, staff and moderators, and by the great majority of its users.
The right attitude has been well described by many, including Cindy and James, and I quote:
James Caulfield wrote:
...the Dutch-English participants keep the mood professional: answers are posed, disagreements are explained, nuances are added, points are appropriately rewarded. Professionalism does not include emotions. Of course, some will argue with this. In business there is an exchange between asker and provider. Emotions belong more in the private domain. Yes, we're all human, but then one must just use this to learn their boundary and see if that's what others are in the market for. My experience shows that not many are in the market for emotions.
...
It appears to me like a healthy community, where opinions are exchanged and help given and received. And I see the same attitude in dozen of communities, in other languages, and thousands of members of the site.
One example, or even 50 examples, out of 850,000 questions, cannot change the basic fact that KudoZ is a resource used by many, and with "real camaraderie".
You can criticize but you cannot even refuse to see what is working well. I'm sorry, but if you don't like KudoZ then there is nothing we can do.
Gianfranco
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two2tango
Argentina
Local time: 17:43
Član
engleski na španjolski
+ ...
| Offenses and camaraderie | Oct 15, 2004 |
Jussara Simoes wrote:
two2tango wrote:
So you came early, then went away for four years and then decided to come back, and you have already found out that "only KudoZ Hunters stay here". The obvious implication is that this includes me and the rest of the current active members. I find this comment offensive.
This is what I think is offensive:
Zulu>English
Tech/Engineering
Answers given: 1
Date Term asked Answer provided Points Glossary
Aug 12 2000 zulu Zulu 4 Enter
And it did not change in the last four years.
Mar 30 (2004)
did him good to hear le hizo bien escuchar 4 OK
Why is a proper answer to an EN-SP question (where the asker selected a wrong pair) more offensive that stating that all current ProZ members are "only KudoZ hunters"?
I don't know better than the rest. I have simply noticed that camaraderie is dead here at ProZ.
Funny, I find camaraderie at every corner of the site.
Enrique
[Edited at 2004-10-15 23:16]
| | | | | Just to set *one* thing straight | Oct 15, 2004 |
Gianfranco Manca wrote:
I was under the impression that 'paleface' was not exactly friendly. As a matter of fact I'm quite dark skinned, but I don't see how adding 'paleface' twice to your opinions has added any value to them.
I haven't followed this thread since the beginning and I haven't seen what Jussara had to say about her use of "paleface", but I must say this word is not in the least offensive in Brazil, and is never used with offensive intent. We use to signal disagreement with someone, particularly when the other person has said something s/he takes for granted, but we don't.
Its use comes from an old cartoon that was published when two well-known politicians, one retiring, the other one his successor, were involved in well-grounded accusations of embezzlement and fraud, and the "heir apparent" took his distances publicly from his mentor. They were depicted as the Lone Ranger and Tonto, surrounded on all sides by Indians. The "Lone Ranger", the older man, says "This time they got us, Tonto". And "Tonto" replies: "Who do you mean by 'us', paleface?"
So, in Brazil, when someone calls someone else "paleface", what s/he really means is "you may think so, I don't".
+++
I will now read the rest of the thread and try to understand what's being discussed to see if I can make any useful contributions. But, before I go, I'd like to say that although I am the person Jussara mentions as responsible for her "return" to Proz.com, I too find her remark about "only Kudoz hunters" staying on as offensive.
Not even being right gives anyone the right to be obnoxious. I'm not above the occasional insult in a heated discussion, but always directed at one individual or group of individuals who I consider as deserving an insult. Not to a community of colleagues to which I want to belong.
Tomás
[Edited at 2004-10-16 22:38]
| | | | gianfranco
Brazil
Local time: 17:43
Član (2001)
engleski na talijanski
+ ...
| Thank you Tomás | Oct 15, 2004 |
Tomás Rosa Bueno wrote:
So, in Brazil, when someone calls someone "paleface", what s/he really means is "you may think so, I don't".
Thank you for your clear explanation. I confess that I'm not well versed in Brazilian slang and Lone Ranger comics...
Anyway, I did not take offence, but I was definitely puzzled more than anything else. Thank you.
Gianfranco
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