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Restrict KudoZ askers working into non-native languages?
Postavljač teme: Ian M-H (X)
Fuad Yahya
Fuad Yahya  Identity Verified
arapski
+ ...
Not all beginners get wiser Mar 31, 2005

In order for beginners to get wiser, KudoZ needs to provide an environment that structurally encourages wise behavior. Otherwise, silliness would reign.

Christine Andersen wrote:

Perhaps it would help to limit the number of questions from 'not logged in' and 'not VIDed' askers, but I have also been very irritated lately by whole series of very elementary questions from the same asker, who I believe is VID, platinum and all the rest. I delete all KudoZ mails from one particular asker unopened...



To provide the proper environment for these irritants to go away and for wisdom to prevail and flourish:

- Unregistered and unlogged users should not be allowed to post questions.

- Unpaid membership should end. It is nothing but a loophole for unregistered members to get registered without buying into the ethos of the system.

- Wholesale series of questions, whether elementary or not, from the same asker should also be ended. A strictly enforced daily ration of questions (say 15 for platinum, 10 for premium, and 5 for an entry level membership level) should put an end to the deluge of nonsense.


 
IanW (X)
IanW (X)
Local time: 00:06
njemački na engleski
+ ...
Restricting non-members Mar 31, 2005

First of all, thanks to my namesake for raising this point.

Personally, I would like to see a far higher level of professionalism in the KudoZ forums. We recently lost a valuable new member of the German-English community who left because he was fed up watching people translating from one non-native language into another and everyone queuing up to assist them.

What annoys me most is non-members bombarding the ProZ with easy questions rather than consulting a dictionary.
... See more
First of all, thanks to my namesake for raising this point.

Personally, I would like to see a far higher level of professionalism in the KudoZ forums. We recently lost a valuable new member of the German-English community who left because he was fed up watching people translating from one non-native language into another and everyone queuing up to assist them.

What annoys me most is non-members bombarding the ProZ with easy questions rather than consulting a dictionary. Personally, I think that it should be a give-and-take community and that non-members should not be allowed to ask questions in the first place, but that’s probably not going to happen. As an alternative, I would propose that non-members should be directed to an online dictionary first of all, then directed to the glossaries and then – and only then – allowed to ask the ProZ a limited number of questions (3 perhaps?).

In short, it should be more work to ask a question than to look for an answer themselves.

My two pingin


Ian
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Fuad Yahya
Fuad Yahya  Identity Verified
arapski
+ ...
Let us not despair of change Mar 31, 2005

Ian Winick wrote:

non-members should not be allowed to ask questions in the first place, but that’s probably not going to happen.



Why not? It should happen. If we think it is important, we should keep insisting on it until it happens.

Ian Winick wrote:

non-members should be directed to an online dictionary first of all, then directed to the glossaries and then – and only then – allowed to ask . . .

. . . In short, it should be more work to ask a question than to look for an answer themselves.



That should be the procedure for registered (meaning paid) members. All others should be welcome as visitors -- to look, see, learn, enjoy, and, perhaps later on, if they like what they see, they might join (and pay and follow the guidelines). While visitors (or unlogged), they should not be allowed to post questions.

Ian Winick wrote:

should be . . . allowed to ask a limited number of questions (3 perhaps?).



There is no alternative to a quota of some kind. We may disagree on the actual numbers, but there needs to be an upper limit.


 
Marcus Malabad
Marcus Malabad  Identity Verified
Kanada
njemački na engleski
+ ...
the other side of the coin Mar 31, 2005

Ian Winick wrote:
...and everyone queuing up to assist them.


This, in my opinion, is the other problem. We will always have newbies and assorted wannabes asking nonsensical questions. But if serious members and pros were to STOP answering these questions, then the well will dry up and newbies will be discouraged.

If we want to encourage pro-level dialog, then we must be willing to be selective in sharing our knowledge.

Marcus


 
Fuad Yahya
Fuad Yahya  Identity Verified
arapski
+ ...
The environment for the desired behavior needs to be structured in Mar 31, 2005

Marcus Malabad wrote:

We will always have newbies and assorted wannabes asking nonsensical questions. But if serious members and pros were to STOP answering these questions, then the well will dry up and newbies will be discouraged.



For people to stop answering silly questions, ProZ first needs to rededicate KudoZ unequivocally to the mission of being a space on the web for collegial consultation among professionals, not for silliness -- and silliness needs to be defined and concretized by specific examples. The structure of what is allowed and what is not needs to be put in place so that when a question is squashed or when the asker is directed to conduct his/her search professionally (start by consulting dictionaries, conducting online corroborative searches, consulting the KudoZ archives, etc.), this response to the asker would be seen for what it is, i.e., implementation of the KudoZ vision. Currently, dealing with irritating askers is perceived by many as being more irritating than the silly questions.


 
Ian M-H (X)
Ian M-H (X)
Sjedinjene Američke Države
Local time: 18:06
njemački na engleski
+ ...
POKRETAČ TEME
Some good points Mar 31, 2005

There have been some valid points made (and in some cases repeated) here. I knew the thread title I chose could be seen as controversial, and one of the points made (Kim) reflects that: yes, there are *some* colleagues who can translate perfectly competently into a target language which is not technically a native langauge for them and some who can work professionally into more than one language. We certainly don't want to hinder them in any way - but nor do we want to encourage Kim or myself to... See more
There have been some valid points made (and in some cases repeated) here. I knew the thread title I chose could be seen as controversial, and one of the points made (Kim) reflects that: yes, there are *some* colleagues who can translate perfectly competently into a target language which is not technically a native langauge for them and some who can work professionally into more than one language. We certainly don't want to hinder them in any way - but nor do we want to encourage Kim or myself to take a three week intensive Swahili course, move to Japan and use our 'knowledge' to start translating from Hebrew to Bulgarian. Okay, I'm getting carried away, but sometimes it feels as though some askers truly believe that a smattering of two non-native languages qualifies them to translate between them.

Some of the thread contributions I've found most interesting/relevant are to do with the learning process and whether or not ProZ (or at least KudoZ) should be limited to paying members. That feels too strict. I know that I'm far from being alone in having spent a few months here, contributing as well as asking, before paying. And I see others who give far, far more in terms of answers and forum contributions but have not paid. And some colleagues would genuinely struggle to pay.

Other ideas seem realistic, though: Make it a little harder to ask questions, at least for new/anonymous askers, and limit the number of questions that can be asked and open. (It isn't only 'newbies' who abuse the system: one or two established members are also capable of having 40+ questions open...).

Perhaps it could be slightly less restrictive than Ian Winick suggests - an initial question could be as easy to ask as it is now, with warnings/'hurdles' increasing until a total block is enforced if someone has asked x questions or has y questions open.

I'll stop before I get *completely* carried away...

Ian



[Edited at 2005-03-31 10:15]
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Fuad Yahya
Fuad Yahya  Identity Verified
arapski
+ ...
Without paid membership, only the most self-disciplined are expected to behave themselves Mar 31, 2005

Ian Harknett wrote:

whether or not ProZ (or at least KudoZ) should be limited to paying members. That feels too strict. I know that I'm far from being alone in having spent a few months here, contributing as well as asking, before paying. And I see others who give far, far more in terms of answers and forum contributions but have not paid. And some colleagues would genuinely struggle to pay.



Many people indeed behave themselves and contribute admirably long before they take the plunge and become paid members, but that does not compare with the multitudes of non-payers who take but not give or who behave unprofessionally, or even with the damage to the KudoZ environment from one non-paying member whose behavior is clearly seen as damaging but not contrary to policy. That is why there is a need for tying participation to paid membership.

The issue of hardship can be remedied in several ways:

- Graduated membership levels: Platinum, Premium, and an entry level (say $12 a year). A member may choose a lower level at first to see if it is worth his while, then may choose a higher level later.

- Portion of the membership fees to be written off based on the contributions that the member has made over the past year. Currently, BrowniZ are taken into consideration.

I am sure there are other ways to help struggling members, but leaving membership not tied to any dues will continue to be a loophole that cannot otherwise be plugged.


 
Konstantin Kisin
Konstantin Kisin  Identity Verified
Ujedinjeno Kraljevstvo
Local time: 23:06
ruski na engleski
+ ...
give-and-take Mar 31, 2005

Someone suggested that "we make it a give-and-take environment".

Well, actually it already is that. You answer questions, you _are given_ points. Although I can never be positive about such things, I estimate to have made a very sizeable financial bonus from my KudoZ standing (and platinum membership). With the new directory, I think the benefits you get for answering 1 question are going to take off. Some of my kudoz points (as with most people), have come from answering questions
... See more
Someone suggested that "we make it a give-and-take environment".

Well, actually it already is that. You answer questions, you _are given_ points. Although I can never be positive about such things, I estimate to have made a very sizeable financial bonus from my KudoZ standing (and platinum membership). With the new directory, I think the benefits you get for answering 1 question are going to take off. Some of my kudoz points (as with most people), have come from answering questions from 1000/0 people and non-members.

As has been extensively discussed before, different people take part in Kudoz for different reasons. I like Kirill's idea not because it forces others "to give something back" (in my experience the 1000/0 people aren't that for no reason - chances are I wouldn't want them to help me with my translation if they paid me!), but rather to get a feel for what it is like to be in the shoes of the answerer.

I think one of the great attractions of Proz is that you can be a non-paying member for a while and fully appreciate what you are buying. There are other translators' websites where you have to pay right away, without a chance to suss out the basic benefits you're going to buy.

And to the bleeding hearts ("let's support this great website and it's creators") among you, why not just estimate the number of platinum members on this website, add 2 zeroes on the end, add advertising revenues and other stuff and realise that Henry and Co are not going to die "for want of bread" - a fact that I am sure makes us all very happy!
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Fuad Yahya
Fuad Yahya  Identity Verified
arapski
+ ...
A while can be a very, very, long time. Mar 31, 2005

Konstantin Kisin wrote:

one of the great attractions of Proz is that you can be a non-paying member for a while



Actually, one of the worst features of ProZ is that you can be a non-paying member (or a non-member user) forever. Who is to say when a visitor must become a member or when a member must become a paying memebr? If the milk is free, why buy the cow?

A visitor who does not participate can still see if this is a site they want to participate in or just visit and learn by observing participants. Also, a low-level membership (say $12 a year) can be instituted to help those who are not sure if a full membership is for them.


 
Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 18:06
OSNIVAČ PORTALA
I have different visions for KudoZ pro and easy Mar 31, 2005

I have two visions for KudoZ: one for easy and one for pro.

There are two levels in KudoZ: "easy" and "pro". "Easy" is for "Happy birthday" and the like; the questions that a language learners might ask or even answer. "Pro" questions are for everything else.

The vision that Fuad and others hold for a professional KudoZ environment is similar to the one I hold for KudoZ "pro". As you suggest, I believe we should "dedicate" KudoZ pro to professional translators.
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I have two visions for KudoZ: one for easy and one for pro.

There are two levels in KudoZ: "easy" and "pro". "Easy" is for "Happy birthday" and the like; the questions that a language learners might ask or even answer. "Pro" questions are for everything else.

The vision that Fuad and others hold for a professional KudoZ environment is similar to the one I hold for KudoZ "pro". As you suggest, I believe we should "dedicate" KudoZ pro to professional translators.

As for "easy", my vision is not only that it remain open to language learners, lovers and all the other types you mentioned, but also that it would be expanded to serve more people outside the field. I would be happy if one day a student in Russia learning Basque is helped by a native counterpart to say "what is your favorite color?", and vice versa, via KudoZ easy.

Members who do not wish to participate in the "easy" network I envision are given a means of removing themselves: just unsubscribe from "easy."

That is my view. Obviously there is a flaw either in this vision or in the way it has been communicated, because the problems cited here are apparent.

Any suggestions on communicating the vision, or at least providing better demarcation?
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Kim Metzger
Kim Metzger  Identity Verified
Meksiko
Local time: 16:06
njemački na engleski
Restrict KudoZ askers working into non-native languages? Mar 31, 2005

Henry wrote:

I have two visions for KudoZ: one for easy and one for pro.

There are two levels in KudoZ: "easy" and "pro". "Easy" is for "Happy birthday" and the like; the questions that a language learners might ask or even answer. "Pro" questions are for everything else.

The vision that Fuad and others hold for a professional KudoZ environment is similar to the one I hold for KudoZ "pro". As you suggest, I believe we should "dedicate" KudoZ pro to professional translators.

Members who do not wish to participate in the "easy" network I envision are given a means of removing themselves: just unsubscribe from "easy."



Henry, I applaud your vision. It sounds like an excellent direction to take. One problem, however, is many people can't figure out what the difference is between "pro" questions and "easy" questions:

I recommend changing the definitions of easy and pro level questions that askers see.

If you want to ask a KudoZ question, you see the following definitions of levels:

Pro - question for professional translators or specialists
Easy - question for language learners

And when you click on "edit question" after a question has been asked, we have the following definitions of level:

Easy: Any bilingual person would know

Pro: This question requires the skills of a specialist

Given the huge number of questions that are being asked under Easy (and which are clearly not questions that any bi-lingual person would know the answer to), I get the impression that when askers see "question for language learners" they aren't necessarily sure whether it applies to them or to the people they're looking for help from. They say to themselves, "well, I'm a language learner" so my question must be easy. Would it be a good idea for the asker to see the second definition of "easy" – "any bilingual person would know" instead of what he sees now?

I think the second set of definitions makes it clearer that the level applies to the answerers rather than the abilities of the asker.


 
Kirill Semenov
Kirill Semenov  Identity Verified
Ukrajina
Local time: 01:06
Član (2004)
engleski na ruski
+ ...
Free switching between "Easy" and "Pro" should be left to moderators only Mar 31, 2005

Dear Henry,

Recently you announced that the future of the ProZ and kudoZ is to give more emphasize on "Pro" questions vs. "Easy". Me personally, I still not very satisfied with the definitions and names of the sections (they do not sound as opposites to me), but anyway I would propose one thing:

let only moderators decide which question is "Easy" and which is "Pro". Not the askers or members.

The reason is simple: right now I (and anyone else) can easily sw
... See more
Dear Henry,

Recently you announced that the future of the ProZ and kudoZ is to give more emphasize on "Pro" questions vs. "Easy". Me personally, I still not very satisfied with the definitions and names of the sections (they do not sound as opposites to me), but anyway I would propose one thing:

let only moderators decide which question is "Easy" and which is "Pro". Not the askers or members.

The reason is simple: right now I (and anyone else) can easily switch all my won answers to "Pro" section and thus gain my benefits in the "ProZ-in-future". Moreover (!), I can switch any other proZians won answers to "Easy" section without anyone noticed! This is a direct and simple way to cheating, so the option to switch answer between "Easy/Pro" should be restricted for moderators only.
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Konstantin Kisin
Konstantin Kisin  Identity Verified
Ujedinjeno Kraljevstvo
Local time: 23:06
ruski na engleski
+ ...
Great vision, but... Mar 31, 2005

In a sentence, the major problem is questions from non-members are by definition Easy, something which does not in any way reflect their difficulty.

 
Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 18:06
OSNIVAČ PORTALA
Moderators will control right to re-classify Mar 31, 2005

Kirill wrote:

...the option to switch answer between "Easy/Pro" should be restricted for moderators only.


There are approximately 1000 KudoZ questions asked per day and it would be impractical for the task of classifying them to be restricted to moderators. Better, we feel, for moderators to have a means of monitoring member activity, and then controlling access to the re-classification functions.

In any case, abuse is usually the exception to the rule. I expect that to hold true in this case.


 
Kirill Semenov
Kirill Semenov  Identity Verified
Ukrajina
Local time: 01:06
Član (2004)
engleski na ruski
+ ...
At least, please make the kudoZ points barrier allowing to edit questions more strict Mar 31, 2005

Henry wrote:
There are approximately 1000 KudoZ questions asked per day and it would be impractical for the task of classifying them to be restricted to moderators.


This is true. Moderators are humans and cannot check every questions (moreover, several times a day). But, then, maybe the rights of prozians to edit questions (in all fields) should be more strict? I mean that 3-4 years ago a thousand of points were rare cases, but now these are a common thing. Maybe proZ may give the right to edit questions to the most experienced members? Or only to members with their identity verified? Or...

What I mean is that abuse is theoretically possible, and this means the way to potential abuse is better to be closed before it has happened.

[Edited at 2005-03-31 18:52]


 
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