| Stranica u temi: < [1 2 3 4] > | Restrict KudoZ askers working into non-native languages? Postavljač teme: Ian M-H (X)
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Kirill Semenov 
Ukrajina
Local time: 03:21
Član (2004)
engleski na ruski
+ ...
| "Voting" to reclassify questions | Mar 31, 2005 |
I've just remembered that there is a "voting" system for reclassifying a question, and the system is already implemented but rarely used. Even if moderators cannot track all questions, other members may _vote_ for reclassification as it is now, but not to switch "Easy/Pro" freely.
This may be a great solution: voting for members, direct option for moderators only.
I may sound pessimistic, but I still think that if there is a way to abuse any system, it will be abused so... See more I've just remembered that there is a "voting" system for reclassifying a question, and the system is already implemented but rarely used. Even if moderators cannot track all questions, other members may _vote_ for reclassification as it is now, but not to switch "Easy/Pro" freely.
This may be a great solution: voting for members, direct option for moderators only.
I may sound pessimistic, but I still think that if there is a way to abuse any system, it will be abused sooner or later...
[Edited at 2005-03-31 19:14] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | The two visions require a wall of separation | Mar 31, 2005 |
Henry wrote:
I have two visions for KudoZ: one for easy and one for pro.
There are two levels in KudoZ: "easy" and "pro". "Easy" is for "Happy birthday" and the like; . . . my vision is not only that it remain open to language learners, lovers and all the other types you mentioned, but also that it would be expanded to serve more people outside the field. I would be happy if one day a student in Russia learning Basque is helped by a native counterpart to say "what is your favorite color?", and vice versa, via KudoZ easy.
I see no harm in realizing the vision of providing a space on the web for people who want linguistic answers but who do not wish to use traditional means or to exert themselves in any way. That is perfectly legitimate. You may even find professionals who have the time to help them.
The problem arises when you merge both visions in one space. As we have seen, simply labeling some questions easy and others pro does not do the trick. Rightly or wrongly, professionals perceive ProZ as a site for pros, including the KudoZ section. If the vision of providing a spoonfeeding service for those who do not wish to open a dictionary, conduct a search on the web, or raise their hand in their language class to ask a question is so compelling, I see no harm in providing a separate space on the web for that vision. It just has no place in ProZ. Once a separate space has been created for non-professional or anti-professional questions, I see no harm in leaving it open for anonymous, unpaid users with no membership status and no accountability.
| | | | | OK, more separation | Mar 31, 2005 |
Fuad Yahya wrote:
If the vision of providing a spoonfeeding service for those who do not wish to open a dictionary, conduct a search on the web, or raise their hand in their language class to ask a question is so compelling, I see no harm in providing a separate space on the web for that vision. It just has no place in ProZ. Once a separate space has been created for non-professional or anti-professional questions, I see no harm in leaving it open for anonymous, unpaid users with no membership status and no accountability.
You may be right, Fuad, perhaps nothing short of complete separation is feasible.
| | | | Michele Fauble
Sjedinjene Američke Države
Local time: 17:21
norveški na engleski
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| Drop the Pro and Easy labels. | Mar 31, 2005 |
I agree with Kim Metzger that many askers are probably confused by the labels Pro and Easy and their definitions. I suggest requiring askers to choose between the following two options:
I am a professional translator in this language pair.
I am a learner or just curious.
Or maybe,
This question is being asked as part of my reseach for a translation into this language.
This question is being asked for learning purposes/out o... See more I agree with Kim Metzger that many askers are probably confused by the labels Pro and Easy and their definitions. I suggest requiring askers to choose between the following two options:
I am a professional translator in this language pair.
I am a learner or just curious.
Or maybe,
This question is being asked as part of my reseach for a translation into this language.
This question is being asked for learning purposes/out of curiosity.
Other formulations are possible.
Michele Fauble ▲ Collapse
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Kim Metzger
Meksiko
Local time: 18:21
njemački na engleski
Fuad Yahya wrote:
The problem arises when you merge both visions in one space. As we have seen, simply labeling some questions easy and others pro does not do the trick. Rightly or wrongly, professionals perceive ProZ as a site for pros, including the KudoZ section. If the vision of providing a spoonfeeding service for those who do not wish to open a dictionary, conduct a search on the web, or raise their hand in their language class to ask a question is so compelling, I see no harm in providing a separate space on the web for that vision. It just has no place in ProZ. Once a separate space has been created for non-professional or anti-professional questions, I see no harm in leaving it open for anonymous, unpaid users with no membership status and no accountability.
Over a year ago I posted a proposal for such a separate space, but it wasn't warmly received:
KiddoZ? Jan 15, 2004
How about a clean separation between KudoZ for experienced, working translators and KudoZ for beginners? I know from my own experience that when I started out translating four years ago I would have joined KiddoZ (just kidding about the title). This would be a place for people just starting out as translators or who have had no formal training or for people just interested in languages. The standards of quality for KudoZ would be considerably higher – both for posing questions and for answering.
We now have pro and easy pairs, but the people answering questions are the same for both categories. With a clean break, we could establish higher standards for participating in KudoZ (such as well-researched and thoughtful answers). With two entirely separate boards, experienced translators would be more comfortable coming to KudoZ for linguistic help, and the beginners would have a good learning experience before attempting to work on a more advanced level.
http://www.proz.com/post/113939#113939
[Edited at 2005-03-31 22:08]
| | | | | Your suggestion is warmly received by this member | Mar 31, 2005 |
Kim Metzger wrote:
We now have pro and easy pairs, but the people answering questions are the same for both categories. With a clean break, we could establish higher standards for participating in KudoZ (such as well-researched and thoughtful answers).
A clean break is exactly what we need. I am sorry I did not get to see your suggestion when it was posted. Here is my belated ringing endorsement.
I would also like to make an important distinction for the sake of clarity. Henry's vision for "easy" seems to be somewhat "easier" than what you have described. He wants the easy category to encompass "happy birthday" and the like. It is a legitimate vision, but it needs to be seen for what it is. It is not for a linguist who one day decided that his/her linguistic skills are such that he/she would want to use it in the translation work field (which, I assume, is what happened to you some years ago). From Henry's description of it, the "easy" vision seems to be for someone who just happens to have a need or desire to know a term or expression in a foreign tongue and does not have the resource to look it up or does not know how to. I would not want beginners to be sent off on their new careers following that path easy path. I would wish for them to start out with a professional posture. There is no harm in having a beginner ask "how do you say 'jaundice' in Arabic?" so long as we do not rush to spoonfeed him the answer. The proper way to handle a question like that from a professional beginner is to say, "you will be interested to know that the most reputable English-Arabic medical reference is actually available on the web free of charge. Here is the URL. Please keep it handy for future lookup. If the listed term for 'jaundice' does not address your need, please let us knwo why so we can help." I believe that a true beginner would appreciate that. But Henry's vision of easy is somewhat different and is not appropriate for beginners. It is more appropriate for non-professionals.
| | | | | Explicit labeling will certainly be helpful | Mar 31, 2005 |
Michele Fauble wrote:
I suggest requiring askers to choose between the following two options:
I am a professional translator in this language pair.
I am a learner or just curious.
Or maybe,
This question is being asked as part of my reseach for a translation into this language.
This question is being asked for learning purposes/out of curiosity.
The crisp, unapologetic language suggested to describe the two types of question is very helpful in crystalizing what each type really means. The wording you suggested is excellent.
But once we have achieved that clarity, we then need to move on to separate the two. They just do not belong together.
| | | | Francis Lee (X)
Local time: 02:21
njemački na engleski
+ ...
| Native speakers of the world, unite! | Mar 31, 2005 |
I can't help thinking that Ian is perhaps not just referring to e.g. Icelanders translating from Gujarati into Cantonese (although if there is one out there somewhere - Hut ab!). In some parts of the world, there are companies paying a dollar a day for basic translations into English. Fair enough - nowt we can do about that particular market. What really annoys me, though, is the apparent plethora of German translators who are under the false impression that they are in a position to provide pro... See more I can't help thinking that Ian is perhaps not just referring to e.g. Icelanders translating from Gujarati into Cantonese (although if there is one out there somewhere - Hut ab!). In some parts of the world, there are companies paying a dollar a day for basic translations into English. Fair enough - nowt we can do about that particular market. What really annoys me, though, is the apparent plethora of German translators who are under the false impression that they are in a position to provide professional translations into English for (I assume) serious money and, when questioned, have the aduacity to claim they are "near-native" or even "used to be ... ". I have for years been asked here in Berlin how it is that I speak such good English (!) by locals, BUT am nonetheless under no allusions as to my ultimate limitations regards writing/translating in(to) German, which I simply refrain from - I refer such jobs to native colleagues. I am reluctant to name and shame here, because the list would encompass EVERY such German(-speaking) translator I have witnessed here except, perhaps, a certain Dr. T. - my judgement being IMO soundly based on their comments bzw. suggested renderings. In many cases, these are indeed expert translators with a fine/superb command of English ABER das reicht eben nicht. One solution: to EXCLUDE "Pro" questions from non-natives until they have been deemed - by us - capable. OK - there will be special cases as rightly pointed out by Ian and Nesrin, but still ... ▲ Collapse
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juvera
Local time: 01:21
engleski na mađarski
+ ...
| What are you arguing about? | Mar 31, 2005 |
I agree with Henry's original intentions for KudoZ.
I don't quite understand what is going on here. Maybe, I am too new to KudoZ, but it doesn't bother me who asks what.
If I have time, or want a brake from my work, I look into it and pick questions which interest me.
Nobody is forcing me to participate, and if I had a problem with it, I would stop bothering.
Sometimes there are easy "dictionary" questions, and some people may spend a minute or so answering them. Fine... See more I agree with Henry's original intentions for KudoZ.
I don't quite understand what is going on here. Maybe, I am too new to KudoZ, but it doesn't bother me who asks what.
If I have time, or want a brake from my work, I look into it and pick questions which interest me.
Nobody is forcing me to participate, and if I had a problem with it, I would stop bothering.
Sometimes there are easy "dictionary" questions, and some people may spend a minute or so answering them. Fine.
It is worrying, when it is obvious, that the "translator" is not up to the task he/she is grappling with, but how would they learn? I am sure, they learn from the answers KudoZ gives them.
If somebody is really abusing the system then he/she can be dealt with individually.
You can't expect the moderators spending inordinate amount of time checking every question, accepting or not accepting them, categorise them, etc.
I think those, who don't read more than the first answer and just agree with it, those who agree with practically all answers, those "professionals" who don't formulate their questions properly and those, who award points without reading all the answers (it seems to happen occasionally) are just as irritating.
How are you going to regulate against these things?
Ease up, switch off, give yourself a break.
You might find it interesting again in a month time.
[Edited at 2005-04-01 08:52] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Ian M-H (X)
Sjedinjene Američke Države
Local time: 20:21
njemački na engleski
+ ...
POKRETAČ TEME | Restrict KudoZ askers working into non-native languages? | Apr 1, 2005 |
Some interesting input, including Henry's - thanks.
Francis Lee wrote:
I can't help thinking that Ian is perhaps not just referring to e.g. Icelanders translating from Gujarati into Cantonese at really annoys me, though, is the apparent plethora of German translators who are under the false impression that they are in a position to provide professional translations into English [...][/quote]
This is indeed an issue, but once again it isn't straightforward. I take the same approach as Francis (and many colleagues) and only translate into my (single) native language *unless* it is very clear that a translation is "for information/comprehension" - e.g. correspondence or a digest of press articles - or is a certificate where I can be sure of technical accuracy and don't have to worry about using a "doch" in a way that no native speaker would.
But some colleagues *do* translate into non-native languages and some are competent. I do some proof-reading for colleagues who translate into a second or third language, work they often take because they have an extremely good knowledge of a specialist subject area. But even the very good ones make mistakes or come up with wording which a good native speaker almost certainly wouldn't - unsurprising, as even translators working into a native language aren't always able to avoid the influence of the source language. The point is that these colleagues are clued-up enough to realise that they need to get their work proof-read by a native speaker and *pay* for that service. That's fine, as is asking - say - half a dozen KudoZ questions at "Pro" level.
The problem is people who are unaware of their limitations, or ignore them and take on paid work they're not capable of doing because they know that they can ask two dozen questions in a single session... (And this group doesn't just include people translating into a non-native language - we've also seen examples of people taking on specialist jobs in areas they are clearly not familiar with. (I'm not talking about jobs where there's a little bit of art history or motor mechanics in a general text, but people who are apparently translating company reports and accounts without knowing what a balance sheet is.)
I don't want to attack Henry's "vision", and I certainly don't have a problem with helping learners, but I'd like to see KudoZ as a place where people's willingness to assist colleagues doesn't lead to them doing other people's paid work for them. It's sometimes a fine line, but I think some of the suggestions made in this thread would help.
Ian
| | | | two2tango
Argentina
Local time: 21:21
Član
engleski na španjolski
+ ...
| I would keep KudoZ basically as it is now | Apr 1, 2005 |
In my opinion our KudoZ offers a helping tool, a community environment, a glossary generator and a game, all packed in a very successful and popular system approaching its millionth question.
Every now and then a new restriction is suggested, but in general I personally find them not worth the effort of designing, implementing and above all administering the suggested devices.
KudoZ is working on a set o simple and straightforward rules, the support of a bunch of volunt... See more In my opinion our KudoZ offers a helping tool, a community environment, a glossary generator and a game, all packed in a very successful and popular system approaching its millionth question.
Every now and then a new restriction is suggested, but in general I personally find them not worth the effort of designing, implementing and above all administering the suggested devices.
KudoZ is working on a set o simple and straightforward rules, the support of a bunch of voluntaries and a lot of common sense.
We engineers use to say that you should not repair what is not broken. Or, on a more Murphy-like vein, "There is some miracle involved when a complex system works properly, don't mess with it or the miracle may vanish"
Regards,
Enrique ▲ Collapse
| | | | mstkwasa
Local time: 01:21
engleski na japanski
+ ...
| A JP <> EN perspective | Apr 1, 2005 |
I think it does make sense to impose some sort of limitation on those working between non-native languages, but as it has been pointed out, it may leave out some legitimate translators in the cold if a rigorous rule is imposed on those translating into a non-native language.
I certainly see the point in the DE > EN forum but I think it can be problematic in the JP < > EN combinations. This is becuase many translators' native language (declared or otherwise) is Japanese but many if n... See more I think it does make sense to impose some sort of limitation on those working between non-native languages, but as it has been pointed out, it may leave out some legitimate translators in the cold if a rigorous rule is imposed on those translating into a non-native language.
I certainly see the point in the DE > EN forum but I think it can be problematic in the JP < > EN combinations. This is becuase many translators' native language (declared or otherwise) is Japanese but many if not most translate bidirectionally. It is partly due to the difficulty (actual or imagined) of learning Japanese as a foreign language and the relative scarcity of English native-speakers who demonstrate a high level of understanding in Japanese to deal with the source text. Certain translators [mother tongue: Japanese] whom I know are near-native in their proficiency in English but there are others whose English has much to be desired.
Personally, I prefer to translate into Japanese, as I find it most comfortable to do so. But at times I am requested to translate into English and in those cases I make sure that the client is informed that I am not translating into my mother tongue. Also because of my university degrees, I do work on German > English combination but this is restricted to materials relating to early modern European history and working with hand-written documents from C16 to C19. When I accept such work, then I make sure to inform the client that I know palaeography, historiography, methodology etc. but I am not a native-speaker of either the source or the target language. So far clients seemed to have been happy about the quality of my work.
[Some changes have been made in this paragraph to avoid any potential misunderstanding]
In the end, because of personal interests - I would like to be able to ask a few questions in the DE > EN forum when I am working on a historical material - I am inclined towards "live and let live". However I have deleted DE > EN from my profile since I do not actively seek for DE > EN work and in agreement with the reasons that have been put forward regarding native speakers (I am neither a German nor an English native speaker) but also because there are too many questions posted to cope with. Most importantly I believe I can participate more usefully in other language combinations. Should not the proposed restrictions be imposed, if they were to be imposed, on the basis of needs of the particular language pair concerned rather than as a blanket policy? And should there not be some leeway?
[Edited at 2005-04-02 18:48] ▲ Collapse
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Balasubramaniam L.
Indija
Local time: 05:51
Član (2006)
engleski na hindski
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LOKALIZATOR PORTALA | Kudos is time pass for me | Apr 2, 2005 |
Kudoz is time pass for me, an Indian English term that means a light breather. I enjoy answering kudoz questions pro or easy, and asking some too myself when I am not too busy. Kudoz is one thing that prompts me to visit the proz site again and again, otherwise I would visit the site only when I receive a job initmation email. So kudoz is a good marketing tool for the site, for it is addictive, even though its real value as a translator's aid may be subject to dispute.
Regarding the... See more Kudoz is time pass for me, an Indian English term that means a light breather. I enjoy answering kudoz questions pro or easy, and asking some too myself when I am not too busy. Kudoz is one thing that prompts me to visit the proz site again and again, otherwise I would visit the site only when I receive a job initmation email. So kudoz is a good marketing tool for the site, for it is addictive, even though its real value as a translator's aid may be subject to dispute.
Regarding the issue of making translators look up a web search or a dictionary search before rushing to the kudoz page, I think this is impractical in many rush job situations... the specialist dictionary may be in a library that opens only on Monday and you have a deadline to meet on Saturday. In many languages, web dictionaries are not that developed or exhaustive and even don't exist. Even printed dictionaries have not been updated for decades. In such cases, the best "dictionary" is a person in touch with the language and who is available. Kudoz is a platform that makes dozens of such people available, and therefore is a useful thing to have. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Robert Donahue (X)
ruski na engleski
+ ...
| I wholeheartedly agree with this sentiment. | Apr 2, 2005 |
two2tango wrote:
In my opinion our KudoZ offers a helping tool, a community environment, a glossary generator and a game, all packed in a very successful and popular system approaching its millionth question.
Every now and then a new restriction is suggested, but in general I personally find them not worth the effort of designing, implementing and above all administering the suggested devices.
KudoZ is working on a set o simple and straightforward rules, the support of a bunch of voluntaries and a lot of common sense.
We engineers use to say that you should not repair what is not broken. Or, on a more Murphy-like vein, "There is some miracle involved when a complex system works properly, don't mess with it or the miracle may vanish"
Regards,
Enrique
I was referred to Proz by friends who specifically brought up the Kudoz game as one of it's biggest features. Yes, there are people who abuse it. That's life, these things happen. Overall though, I favor a "if it's not broke(n too badly), don't fix it". Kudoz has provided a welcome respite from work and a fun, intellectual game. Frankly, it was one of the many factors that led me to go platinum.
Best of luck to all of you,
Rob
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