| Страниц в теме: < [1 2 3 4 5 6] > | Replace "native language" with "most competent language combination" Автор темы: Samuel Murray
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| Replacing native language with something else | Jun 23, 2012 |
I think it is a wonderful idea. Also, the level of expertise in particular fields should be taken into consideration.
| | | | Phil Hand 
Китай
Local time: 16:40
китайский => английский
| I don't see the point | Jun 23, 2012 |
I'm not sure what the point of any of this would be, Samuel.
From your suggestions 2 & 3 you seem to be accepting that the native speaker concept is of interest/value when selecting a translator. The "native" concept is a bit hard to define, and there are some people who don't fall neatly into any one category. But that's true of any system, including yours.
Your suggestions also have massive problems:
1) The wording "most competent combination" implies tha... See more I'm not sure what the point of any of this would be, Samuel.
From your suggestions 2 & 3 you seem to be accepting that the native speaker concept is of interest/value when selecting a translator. The "native" concept is a bit hard to define, and there are some people who don't fall neatly into any one category. But that's true of any system, including yours.
Your suggestions also have massive problems:
1) The wording "most competent combination" implies that a translator's other combinations are "less competent". That's not the kind of impression any translator would be willing to give. Would you like to tell potential employers in which of your directions you are less competent?
2) Despite being a bit woolly (though, frankly, much less woolly than some people are implying. The number of really-and-truly bilingual-bicultural people is actually pretty small), the concept "native" does have some meaning. The concept of "most competent combination" has no meaning at all, other than "these are the jobs I want".
3) Native is susceptible to testing. As you said in the other thread, it's connected to competence - a speaker who does not write competently is definitely not native. "most competent combination" cannot be tested in any way.
It seems like the real argument against "native" - the reason it's "emotional" - is because some it's connected to livelihood. Some on the other thread have said so explicitly.
I'm not insensitive to the problem. The vast majority of the translation work in my pair is done by Chinese natives. And there are many translators who work successfully out of L1 into L2 (including me, as an occasional favour to long-term clients). But we can't even have a reasoned discussion about this until people are willing to be honest about what a native language is. "I'm not willing to even talk admit the concept of native because I'm worried about my business" is just obstructionism.
Your suggestions here don't solve any of the underlying issues, and they create a bunch of new ones. ▲ Collapse
| | | | BeaDeer (X)
английский => словенский
+ ...
| ..."suggestions don't solve underlying issues"... | Jun 23, 2012 |
... and create a bunch of new ones.
I do have to agree with this.
| | | | Phil Hand
Китай
Local time: 16:40
китайский => английский
| Reply to other thread | Jun 23, 2012 |
Samuel, I hope you'll excuse me replying to you here. I really want to separate these two issues (this thread: should we ditch the native concept; that thread: assuming we keep the native concept, how do we make it work in Proz).
So, a couple of points:
Samuel: "for some people (like yourself) it is patently obvious that competence is a key aspect of nativeness, and you do not seem to realise that that is not obvious to everyone, because not everyone uses that definition of "native language"."
I call bullshit. Seriously - find me one person in the world who has a definition of "native language" that doesn't include being competent in it. The example you give doesn't wash. I can imagine someone calling a forgotten childhood language "native" and qualifying it. But let me put it this way: there are zero competent speakers of English in the world for whom the unqualified statement "X is my native language" does not imply that the speaker speaks X competently.
A number of people on the other thread have tried to complicate the definition, but some of them admitted that they were doing so NOT because they disagree over what native means, but because they don't think jobs should only be given to native target language translators.
I don't think native speakerdom is that hard to define. It's a language that you speak that you acquired as a child.
I suspect that many of the abuses are not malicious, but rather stem from a misunderstanding (or alternate definition) of the concept of "native language". I accept, however, that some of the abuses result from not wanting to end up lower in a directory search or being excluded from jobs.
How would these non-malicious abuses come about? There are only two ways that I can see: (1) someone puts in a forgotten childhood language. That's not a problem, they know (presumably) that this language is imperfect, they're probably not translating into it.
(2) someone puts in a language which they believe (mistakenly) they have learned to "native" level as an adult. While it is possible that this happens, I think it's a small minority, and I think it could be and should be cleared up by giving a partial definition: a native language is one you learned as a small child.
In terms of the relative numbers - please, just go and look at Chinese-English translators. I haven't gone down the whole list, but of those who list both Chinese and English as native on this site, I know only two who write English competently. The rest are just lying, or Singaporean (they're a bit of a special case, and deluded about everything, and famous in this part of the world for basically having no native language).
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XXXphxxx (X)
Великобритания
Local time: 09:40
португальский => английский
+ ...
Phil Hand wrote:
or Singaporean (they're a bit of a special case, and deluded about everything, and famous in this part of the world for basically having no native language).
Sorry, had to edit, slip of a button...
My mother is Singaporean and has no native language (although she doesn't realise it herself), despite speaking half a dozen very competently - a scenario that was slightly alluded to in the other thread. Still very much the exception for the sake of the current discussions.
[Edited at 2012-06-23 18:50 GMT]
| | | | | Competent and native not the same - sorry if OT | Jun 23, 2012 |
Phil Hand wrote:
3) Native is susceptible to testing. As you said in the other thread, it's connected to competence - a speaker who does not write competently is definitely not native. "most competent combination" cannot be tested in any way.
Not sure who said this, but I absolutely disagree. If being native means being competent, then every single person who only speaks 1 language which is their native language would be competent to proofread. Which is, of course, false. There are many people we meet daily on the street who can't speak their single language correctly, who can't spell correctly and have a very modest vocabulary etc., yet we must admit that language is their native language as they don't speak any other. It also (or mostly) has to do with education.
I think this whole native-nonnative debate is fuelled by the animosity (envy, anger etc.) of natives towards nonnatives who get jobs at lower rates, because they think all those jobs should be assigned to them. (I too get upset when I see bad translations that would have never been produced if the person had actually spoken the target language, but still...)
| | | | Ty Kendall
Великобритания
Local time: 09:40
иврит => английский
Annamaria Amik wrote:
Not sure who said this, but I absolutely disagree. If being native means being competent, then every single person who only speaks 1 language which is their native language would be competent to proofread. Which is, of course, false. There are many people we meet daily on the street who can't speak their single language correctly, who can't spell correctly and have a very modest vocabulary etc., yet we must admit that language is their native language as they don't speak any other. It also (or mostly) has to do with education.
I think this whole native-nonnative debate is fuelled by the animosity (envy, anger etc.) of natives towards nonnatives who get jobs at lower rates, because they think all those jobs should be assigned to them. (I too get upset when I see bad translations that would have never been produced if the person had actually spoken the target language, but still...)
I have to disagree. I don't think it's about jobs at all. It's about fair play.
| | | | Samuel Murray
Нидерланды
Local time: 10:40
Член ProZ.com c 2006
английский => африкаанс
+ ...
Автор темы
Phil Hand wrote:
How would these non-malicious abuses come about? ... (2) someone puts in a language which they believe (mistakenly) they have learned to "native" level as an adult. While it is possible that this happens, I think it's a small minority...
We can only speculate. I would have thought that abuse of your category #2 quoted above would constitute the majority of cases, but you seem to believe differently.
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Samuel Murray
Нидерланды
Local time: 10:40
Член ProZ.com c 2006
английский => африкаанс
+ ...
Автор темы
Phil Hand wrote:
Your suggestions here don't solve any of the underlying issues, and they create a bunch of new ones.
Yeah, you may be right, I think.
| | | | Phil Hand
Китай
Local time: 16:40
китайский => английский
| What's wrong with envy? | Jun 23, 2012 |
Annamaria Amik wrote:
If being native means being competent, then every single person who only speaks 1 language which is their native language would be competent to proofread.
...
I think this whole native-nonnative debate is fuelled by the animosity (envy, anger etc.) of natives towards nonnatives who get jobs at lower rates, because they think all those jobs should be assigned to them.
Annamaria, you seem to be confusing two concepts: linguistic competence and professional competence. They are distinct. In order to be a good translator/proofreader, you have to be competent in a language. But not everyone who is competent in a language is a professional language user.
Second - what's wrong with envy? We work in a market. Yes, you're damn right I don't want jobs being taken by people who lie to get them. I would happily admit to feeling animosity towards colleagues who get work by fraudulently claiming skills which they do not have. Why do you think that's bad?
Also, in my pair (and possibly in yours, too), there is a lack of (professionally) competent English-native translators. We literally cannot do all the work. Chinese natives have to do most of it. It would be of great value for our industry to discuss how to optimise the use of resources, because at the moment, Chinese-English is a mess. But we can't have this debate until people are honest about their native languages, so that outsourcers can get a clearer picture of the market.
How many times have I written that now?
| | | | Phil Hand
Китай
Local time: 16:40
китайский => английский
| @Samuel - why it happens | Jun 23, 2012 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
We can only speculate. I would have thought that abuse of your category #2 quoted above would constitute the majority of cases, but you seem to believe differently.
Question of perspective... the cases I see, in my pair - I can't believe they really think they're native-level. Could be wrong, of course, but it seems like calculated commercial behaviour to me. Either way, I think it could be stopped fairly easily.
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
Великобритания
Local time: 09:40
португальский => английский
+ ...
Annamaria Amik wrote:
There are many people we meet daily on the street who can't speak their single language correctly, who can't spell correctly and have a very modest vocabulary etc., yet we must admit that language is their native language as they don't speak any other. It also (or mostly) has to do with education.
Sorry Annamaria, these are not people who are trying to pass muster as professional translators.
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Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote: Annamaria Amik wrote:
There are many people we meet daily on the street who can't speak their single language correctly, who can't spell correctly and have a very modest vocabulary etc., yet we must admit that language is their native language as they don't speak any other. It also (or mostly) has to do with education.
Sorry Annamaria, these are not people who are trying to pass muster as professional translators.
Lisa, I was merely trying to make a point that being native doesn't mean being competent.
Besides, why don't lawyers get upset about legal translations being done by people without a degree in law? Why don't engineers claim that technical translations should be done by engineers? Or physicians that medical translations should be done by medical professionals? ProZ should enforce a rule that nobody can select these fields of speciality without proof of a degree in those fields, hehe.
I think it's much easier to correct/proofread the typical linguistic mistakes of nonnatives than to edit the c**p of incompetents who have no idea about the field, regardless of how beautifully and correctly they speak the target language. Now, when linguistic incompetence meets professional incompetence, that's the worst
End of OT.
| | | | Ty Kendall
Великобритания
Local time: 09:40
иврит => английский
| False assumption | Jun 23, 2012 |
Annamaria Amik wrote:
I was merely trying to make a point that being native doesn't mean being competent.
In everyday life perhaps, but in the realms of translation, most natives are indeed competent in their own language; whether they are competent in their specialization is another issue altogether and one which is irrelevant to the current discussion.
I think it's much easier to correct/proofread the typical linguistic mistakes of nonnatives than to edit the c**p of incompetents who have no idea about the field,
That's quite an assumption. Linguistic calamities can be equally, if not more destructive.
[Edited at 2012-06-23 20:11 GMT]
| | | | | Wrong assumptions | Jun 23, 2012 |
Many people, not necessarily in this forum, assume that the language somebody earned as a child is something permanent and could be compared to the ability to walk which you learn in early childhood. These are mostly people who live in not so diverse environments and who have not lived, for years, in other countries. Language changes. If the person has not lived in the country of their origin for years, even for ten or fifteen years, their L1 becomes somewhat stiff. It does not have the same fl... See more Many people, not necessarily in this forum, assume that the language somebody earned as a child is something permanent and could be compared to the ability to walk which you learn in early childhood. These are mostly people who live in not so diverse environments and who have not lived, for years, in other countries. Language changes. If the person has not lived in the country of their origin for years, even for ten or fifteen years, their L1 becomes somewhat stiff. It does not have the same flow anymore. In addition to that, if that person has most of their education in another language, they would never be able to successfully translate very specialized texts. So, I think the native language requirement might just left the way it is, but people should not pay that much attention to it. A person who is bilingual but has not studied law or legal language at least would be hardly ever a good candidate to translate legal texts in any direction, and even a person who is not a native speaker of a particular language but is really an expert in that field might much better. This is true about most other fields of specialized translation. ▲ Collapse
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