| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18] > | Moving on from freelance translation, starting a new career Thread poster: James Greenfield
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| But you guys agreed with me! (only you are MORE pessimistic) | Feb 21 |
Christopher Schröder wrote: My aim was to challenge Lefteris' claims and give an example of what can still be achieved today.
I spoke (Tom agreed) of large volumes moving outside proz (proz is tiny). Also that our resumes are severely neglected (you agreed!). Also to diversify/avoid bad agencies if possible and stop begging (everyone agrees). Tom hinted of unionization (I didn't). I never spoke of burger flipping or plumbing (others did).
| | | | | Just a few points. | Feb 21 |
Dan Lucas:
That is not an accurate summary of my view, which is that success in life is not random, and that over the medium to long term people tend to end up with the results they deserve relative to others in similar circumstances.
(...)
Most of us will have a fairly balanced mix of both in the course of our lives.
Dan, I believe your perspective oversimplifies the deeply complex challenges caused by global inequality.
Firstly, the view that people fail if they don't "work hard" often draws upon ideas stemming from the theory of predestination, originally designed by Calvin. While rooted in religion, this influenced capitalism, suggesting that material success reflects moral worth and that the wealthy "deserve" their position. This echoes in the way we sometimes idolize billionaires, believing their success comes purely from merit rather than factors like inheritance or circumstance. Celebrities like Elon Musk embody this belief.
However, suggesting that most people get what they "deserve" disregards the reality that 4 billion people – half the world's population – live on less than $6.85 daily [1]. Consider someone born into extreme poverty in sub-Saharan Africa. Even with extraordinary effort, their opportunities are severely limited compared to an upper-class American. Systemic factors, including access to education, healthcare, and basic infrastructure, dramatically shape an individual's trajectory.
Does someone born into poverty deserve their fate? Does an upper-class American deserve their privilege simply due to birthplace?
I'm sure you agree the answer is no.
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Sources:
[1] https://www.un.org/ohrlls/content/about-least-developed-countries
"Solution" suggests that I'm in some way involved in the problem, which is not the case. I am not responsible in any way for the career success or failure of other people.
You are absolutely involved in this problem.
Even if you believe the collapse of the translation market wouldn't directly harm you, the consequences would ripple throughout the economy. No one exists in an economic vacuum.
Let's imagine you have the flexibility to switch jobs. That doesn't negate the impact of the market collapse. Increased competition amongst displaced workers would likely drive down wages and working conditions in adjacent fields. Economic downturns create widespread instability, undermining investments, and consumer confidence, which impacts everyone.
It's crucial to remember that markets are interconnected. Dismissing the struggles of others as "someone else's problem" ignores the reality that economic hardship has a cascading effect. We are all part of a larger system, and no one is truly immune to its shocks.
I don't think anyone here would have a definitive solution to it.
If you can't find an example it suggests that there is no precedent for successful collective action in a global unregulated industry.
No, just realistic, in the apparent absence of any evidence to the contrary. My time is precious; I prefer not to waste it in pointless behavior.
I don't propose to get involved with the careers of other translators in any way at all, any more than I intend to get involved in the careers of dentists, or wheat farmers, or the guys who empty the bins for us. They are responsible for their lives.
I am responsible for my own life and those of my dependents. My first and foremost duty is to protect them and provide for them until they can look after themselves. I find that is difficult enough.
Refusing involvement assumes that collective issues have no bearing on you. But what about advocating for better rates for everyone, including yourself? Or fighting against practices that undervalue the profession? That's not pointless, it's self-preservation within a shared market.
Maybe you won't need the support of fellow translators today, but what about tomorrow? If they're too busy fighting for survival, they won't be there to lend a hand when you need it. In our industry, everyone faces potential hardships. Imagine if ProZ didn't exist – we'd lack tools like the BlueBoard (however flawed) or this very forum for guidance and community. Our continued collaboration makes these resources possible.
[Edited at 2024-02-21 21:31 GMT]
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Christopher Schröder wrote:
You can also refuse to be commoditised. What I offer is not the same as what translators half my price offer. (I don't happen to think that what I offer is necessarily worth twice as much, but in a capitalist economy that's their problem, not mine.)
I believe, the commodity trap can be escaped through what 'big agencies' seem to fail to deliver: 'ownership' (focus on client tech, product, content) and 'authority' (built upon the feedback from users, analytics, in-country SME).
[Edited at 2024-02-22 02:35 GMT]
| | | | | Largely, of course | Feb 22 |
Lefteris Kritikakis wrote: Christopher Schröder wrote: My aim was to challenge Lefteris' claims and give an example of what can still be achieved today. I spoke (Tom agreed) of large volumes moving outside proz (proz is tiny). Also that our resumes are severely neglected (you agreed!). Also to diversify/avoid bad agencies if possible and stop begging (everyone agrees). Tom hinted of unionization (I didn't). I never spoke of burger flipping or plumbing (others did).
Underneath all the overblown rhetoric, you're saying what we all already know, so yes we are all largely in agreement.
The trouble is that you couch it all in things like "I was saying this 15 years ago" and "none of you realise but", which instantly puts people's backs up. And that's before we get to the hyperbole (I suspect American carpenters don't really make most of their money from TikTok), all the shouty bold type and, above all, your insistence on presenting your experience/claims as universal truths, which they are not.
The upside of the two of us rattling the cage in our different ways is that there is some interesting food for thought on this thread.
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Surely the problem is the chickenshit translators who accept big-agency prices and practices, MTPE and the rest?
They got themselves into this mess and are now making life harder for everyone.
I understand why, but they made that choice, so is it fair to make their struggles a collective responsibility?
| | | | Dan Lucas 
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:37
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
| The point stands: global collective action is a fairy story | Feb 22 |
Carlos A R de Souza wrote:
Various
No. I'm not going to engage with a bunch of unsupported assertions that boil down to student politics-style moving of goalposts.
The original point was global collective action among translators. Having failed to present any concrete argument for how this might be accomplished, you're trying to derail the discussion by shifting it to the broadest possible themes.
I suggest that you start a new thread in the "Off Topic" section where those interested can chat with you about politics.
In the meantime, my position is unchanged: I am not responsible for the working lives of others, such as the OP, even though I may be sympathetic to their plight.
The OP is responding logically and sensibly to his situation. The market is signalling that the service he offers is not competitive at the price at which he is offering it, or maybe that there is no demand for the service at any price. He is heeding market signals instead of ignoring them. If I were in the same boat, I would take the same action.
If a person is unable to make a success of their existing line of work, whether that be translation or something else, they should shift to something to which they are better suited, repeatedly if need be. There is no shame in that. If they are incapable of any kind of work, then there is the welfare system.
Dan
[Edited at 2024-02-22 07:55 GMT]
| | | | Christina B.
Sweden
Local time: 09:37
French to German
+ ...
| Who Moved My Cheese | Feb 22 |
Thank you all for a very interesting discussion! Plenty of food for thought.
The thread reminds me of Spencer Johnsons fable "Who Moved My Cheese" about reactions to major change in ones work and life.
| | | | | The Grapes of Wrath | Feb 22 |
Christina B. wrote:
The thread reminds me of Spencer Johnsons fable "Who Moved My Cheese" about reactions to major change in ones work and life.
Indeed. For me, it reminds me of John Steinbeck's 'The Grapes of Wrath', which deals with some poor farmers having to emigrate from Oklahoma to California because of the Dust Bowl and, above all, the mechanisation of agriculture.
No matter how good we are at our job and how well we negotiate our rates, we are slowly being replaced by machines. Simple as. Any translator who still has more than a decade left of working life and who is not looking into alternative sources of income is simply denying the truth.
[Edited at 2024-02-22 10:41 GMT]
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Dan Lucas
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:37
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
Roser Bosch Casademont wrote:
No matter how good we are at our job and how well we negotiate our rates, we are slowly being replaced by machines. Simple as. Any translator who still has more than a decade left of working life and who is not looking into alternative sources of income is simply denying the truth.
I am not necessarily disagreeing with you, but (just to underline the uncertainties that we face) neither do I see any way that we could test this assertion. Again and again we come up against a lack of data in and on this market of ours.
To what extent are the difficulties we are seeing the result of uncompetitive people being edged out of the market, and to what extent are they the result of incursion into the market as a whole by MT? I'm sure that both elements exist, but I don't think we can quantify or unravel the relative impacts.
Another way of putting it is that I don't mind if the traditional market becomes 10% of the size that it was, provided that I'm in that 10% and I'm still making reasonable money. But that doesn't seem to be something I can predict with any confidence in advance.
The prudent conclusion to draw is probably that even if we assume that a market for traditional translation remains for years to come, one cannot guarantee that one will be part of it, and one should therefore start thinking about diversification. If one is open to MTPE and so on, one naturally has more options.
Dan
| | | | Lieven Malaise
Belgium
Local time: 09:37
Member (2020)
French to Dutch
+ ...
Roser Bosch Casademont wrote:
Any translator who still has more than a decade left of working life and who is not looking into alternative sources of income is simply denying the truth.
That's a bit jumping to conclusions. I'm very aware of the challenges ahead, but that doesn't stop me from focussing myself on translation (in all its forms) as a fulltime occupation. I will deal with alternative sources of income when I will feel those sources become a necessity (to be clear: "alternative sources" in my case would simply be looking for a real job, not renting out my slippers or asking money to come and visit my backyard to enjoy the view).
In the mean time I will continue to try to get the most out of my translation business. As Dan pointed out, we all lack data and reliable information. With all due respect for everyone's opinion, but it's basically all speculation. Nobody knows if the translation market will disappear, when it will disappear, when it will shrink, to what extent it will shrink, etcetera.
I prefer to believe my own eyes. I'm almost 19 years in business, with an absolute high during the past 5 years, this apparently at a time that other translators have been experiencing significant income decreases for years now, even to a point that they quit or switch to part-time translation.
My point is not that the discussed problems don't exist, but I'm pretty sure we can't generalize the situation on the translation market. A good deal of translators is still doing good, because they adapt or are good above average or have a better price/quality ratio than other translators, or whatever other reason there might be.
People seem to forget that this market is flooded with people who don't know the first thing about translation or running a business, but still become a freelancer. How many of those people are right now blaming the market for their situation, contributing at the same time to the doom and gloom atmosphere on translator platforms, while they themselves are the problem? Rhetorical question.
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Roser Bosch Casademont wrote:
Any translator who still has more than a decade left of working life and who is not looking into alternative sources of income is simply denying the truth.
A degree of diversification is certainly an option worth considering for any business, anywhere, at any time. Eggs and baskets and all that jazz.
I freely confess I was previously somewhat cynical about it - I thought less about my basket of eggs and more about jacks of all trades being masters of none. And it often seemed that the loudest proponents of diversification would only talk about diversifying into areas such as selling sessions on building a good LinkedIn profile, or personal branding, or what to put on an invoice.
Makes more sense now - I would see all that stuff cos I was the target. I didn't see people diversifying into dog walking or making furniture or language teaching - happened away from my gaze.
I seem to recall some pronouncing translation was dead when MT, after threatening to do so since I was a lad (hell, I even did some rudimentary - and useless - MT coding in the 80s myself), finally became mainstream(ish, for some pairs). But it was largely confined to the industry itself. Agencies, some huge companies. Most clients knew little or nothing.
AI is different, IMHO. Everyone has heard of it, everyone can use it, at this point free of charge. Obviously the situation might change.
There is undoubtedly a bubble effect at the moment and it will probably deflate.
But I don't think it's a flash in the pan like, say, wearable tech proved to be.
I suspect that it will continue to exist into the long term in those areas where it has already penetrated (notably FIGSEnglish).
If you're in a segment where the effects are yet to be felt - I'm happy for you but well, like Dan says, another principle (apart from diversification) often bandied about in business is that of prudence. Or perhaps the precautionary principle applies.
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Just throwing that in there:
The moment we are in where people are actually acting on this leaving the profession if the exact same moment when other professionals are realizing that LLM are coming to a plateau.
Reality is that pipelines to use LLM for translation are not yet ready for production (at big LSP level), they are still slower than MT and they are not that "creative".
So as always, translators with good writing skills will still have a job, just ... See more Just throwing that in there:
The moment we are in where people are actually acting on this leaving the profession if the exact same moment when other professionals are realizing that LLM are coming to a plateau.
Reality is that pipelines to use LLM for translation are not yet ready for production (at big LSP level), they are still slower than MT and they are not that "creative".
So as always, translators with good writing skills will still have a job, just wait for the dust to settle a little bit.
If you want to see studies appreciating where LLM is not that good compared to MT check out this video I made this week: https://youtu.be/UefEQC3LSzY?si=_1pGHf4XrAc0DnCd
It's based off Intento's study.
Hope this'll make your day a little bit brighter. ▲ Collapse
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Dan Lucas
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:37
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
Charlie Bavington wrote:
A degree of diversification is certainly an option worth considering for any business, anywhere, at any time. Eggs and baskets and all that jazz.
You also have to consider the cost of diversification. If you knew for sure that your business would run into a wall three years down the road, the near-term costs of establishing a new business would be less of an issue. You would just have to get it done.
However, if the future is not certain and your translation business is still ticking over nicely, there is a real monetary cost associated with every hour you "steal" from the existing business to build a new business that doesn't yet even exist let alone generate cash.
A month or so ago I saw an interesting job advertised at a small company based about 30 miles away. Very hands-on, good financial and analytical skills required, lots of software experience a plus, preference given to people who get stuck in (not in so many words, of course) and so on. Reading between the lines I thought there was potential for promotions and also sideways moves out of the finance team.
I toyed with the idea of applying, but even working full-time I would have made significantly less than half of my current income. And even working remotely I would have had to attend the office one or two days a week, so you then you get the whole issue of commuting and vehicle reliability, which adds another whole layer of cost and complication.
Add it all up and, well, it just didn't add up from a financial perspective. No doubt there are aspects of such a job that I would have enjoyed, but I also have financial commitments to cover. I think Chris has run into the same issue, but his chicks have flown the nest so less of problem for him I guess.
So if your business is doing okay then diversification becomes even more difficult in the sense that it's not just a case of thinking of something to do but also of something to do that doesn't impair or damage your existing source of income. It's a conundrum.
But then again, if it were easy then everybody would be successful, and none of us have a God-given right to success in a particular line of work just because we want it.
Dan
| | | | | People often overestimate their skills. | Feb 22 |
Dan Lucas wrote:
I don't mind if the traditional market becomes 10% of the size that it was, provided that I'm in that 10% and I'm still making reasonable money.
You don't say.
I guess nobody here would mind being in that 10%, or 1%, or 0.0005%... provided they are in it making a lot of money.
But, as you mentioned...
Dan Lucas wrote:
But that doesn't seem to be something I can predict with any confidence in advance.
Dan
Furthermore...
Dan Lucas wrote:
To what extent are the difficulties we are seeing the result of uncompetitive people being edged out of the market, (...)
Here's the fundamental problem: it takes more and more to be competitive. It's simple as that.
Machines don't get tired. They don't need to get paid. They need no sleep.
In the meanwhile, we humans have growing costs due to inflation.
We humans also tend to overestimate how good we are in relation to the average, like when the American Automobile Association published a study in which 8 out of 10 Americans reported they drive better than average – which is statistically impossible: https://newsroom.aaa.com/2018/01/americans-willing-ride-fully-self-driving-cars/.
Statistically, at least half of this forum's members fall into the average category. But there's a common tendency to perceive oneself as unique or superior to the average, including the belief that one's role is immune to automation.
Just to clarify, identifying who falls within this average would be presumptuous on my part, so it is not my intention. I'm just stating that maybe we should consider we are more susceptible to the side effects of automation than we think, no matter how good we are.
[Edited at 2024-02-22 14:21 GMT]
| | | | | Not being able to fight globally doesn't mean we can't do anything at all. | Feb 22 |
Dan Lucas wrote:
The original point was global collective action among translators. Having failed to present any concrete argument for how this might be accomplished, you're trying to derail the discussion by shifting it to the broadest possible themes.
You appear to be establishing a hypothetical baseline to undermine the entire discussion. The inability of translators to form a global union does not negate the possibility of establishing local entities to enhance our circumstances, which indeed can improve our lives.
I highlighted this perspective, but you dismissed it along with the rest of the argument.
[Edited at 2024-02-22 14:31 GMT]
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