| Stranica u temi: < [1 2 3 4 5 6] > | would non-natives answering KudoZ Qs practice a little introspection please? Postavljač teme: Lia Fail (X)
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Sophia Hundt (X) 
Local time: 03:38
ruski na engleski
+ ...
| The one problem I see with it... | Oct 5, 2006 |
The one problem I can see with this suggestion is that sometimes, non-natives of the target language happen to know exactly what something means in their native tongue (again, that's for the cases when the problem is understanding the source vs. the best possible translation into the target language). It seems to me it's important that they have the option to indicate that they know something for sure.
Parrot wrote:
It just occurred to me: would it make programming sense (considering we already have programmable asker-side restrictions) to make it impossible for a non-native not working in the question's specialist field to assign a confidence level of '5'?
And then, would it make kudoZ sense?
Or would a message "you have not reported yourself a native in this target language" do the trick?
Just a couple of thoughts.
| | | | Robert Forstag
Sjedinjene Američke Države
Local time: 04:38
španjolski na engleski
+ ...
| Just trust the process of natural selection | Oct 5, 2006 |
I certainly see Lia's point here, but I have to second Henry's and Thomas's responses. Serious professionals will almost always see clearly ridiculous answers--and the people who habitually offer them--for what they are.
There is currently one participant offering answers in the Spanish-to-English pair that look like randomly generated word strings. When I checked her profile, it turned out she has something like ten accepted answers out of a total of more than 200 total responses.... See more I certainly see Lia's point here, but I have to second Henry's and Thomas's responses. Serious professionals will almost always see clearly ridiculous answers--and the people who habitually offer them--for what they are.
There is currently one participant offering answers in the Spanish-to-English pair that look like randomly generated word strings. When I checked her profile, it turned out she has something like ten accepted answers out of a total of more than 200 total responses. More grotesque still is that she posted rates that were more than double those generally considered acceptable for highly qualified translators in her pairs.
This is only the most egregious example. There are other point-hunters out there whose idea of responding is cutting and pasting a half dozen references for a phrase that any native speaker would immediately recognize as being off base. There are even non-native speakers posting answers to the monolingual English forum that are transparently far off the mark.
If Kudoz were dominated by such people, then the entire system would be a travesty. Thankfully, such is not the case. Therefore, no need to get into a snit about it. We all probably have more important things to worry about. As Thomas points out, "Disagrees" are often in order in such cases. And if the irresponsible asker decides (as is so often the case) to throw a tantrum over being disagreed with, then they will only deepen the negative impression that they have already made.
[Edited at 2006-10-05 00:17] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Sophia Hundt (X)
Local time: 03:38
ruski na engleski
+ ...
| On "shunning guesses"... | Oct 5, 2006 |
Thanks, Craigs!
However, taking a stand to shun guesses wouldn't be the best idea because there are those few times when a person who thinks he's guessing, and indicates so, does indeed offer the best answer (at least that was my experience once).
craigs wrote:
Sophia Hundt wrote:
Once you start filtering who can answer what question, you will lose a valuable resource of non-natives offering a valuable insight in some particular case. I feel like if you are asking for help, you should to a certain degree be able to tolerate ridiculous answers, since sensible answers will, most likely, come as well.
However, someone in the past did offer to improve the Kudoz system by making it possible for the asker to "reject" an answer that is obviously poor (hide it, maybe?) so that good answerers don't skip over a question with lots of answers provided already. You know, they are accepting suggestions as to how to improve the site right now in a different thread.
Also, do keep in mind that if you are translating from a language that is not your native and are merely trying to understand the meaning (and then provide your own, better translation), then a native speaker of the source language is often more valuable than a native speaker of the target language, simply because they will understand the subtle shades of meaning and cultural context that sometimes won't be understood by the native speakers of the target language. (İ think you touched on that as well).
I do agree with you, however, that 'confidence level' option has very little value to the asker, since, as you correctly point out, it's highly subjective. Why not ignore it?
Regards,
Sophia
I agree with what you said; I just want to add that not only are they suggestions, but a representation of the person's credibility as a translator. Guesses should be altogether shunned unless it becomes obvious that it is an extremely obscure term and no viable answers are offered.
In such a case, why on earth would someone get upset at a candid if not completely accurate response.
| | | | Kim Metzger
Meksiko
Local time: 03:38
njemački na engleski
Sophia Hundt wrote:
The one problem I can see with this suggestion is that sometimes, non-natives of the target language happen to know exactly what something means in their native tongue (again, that's for the cases when the problem is understanding the source vs. the best possible translation into the target language). It seems to me it's important that they have the option to indicate that they know something for sure.
Hi Sophia - Lia made it quite clear from the very beginning of this thread that she understands that people who are not native speakers of the target language but who have expertise in the source language are valuable contributors to KudoZ. I'm glad you've reiterated that point because it's a very important one. Sometimes the best translations are the result of a collaboration between target language and source language translators.
But the point Lia and others have made has to do with honesty. Yes - non-natives should contribute by all means, but they should also make it absolutely clear that they're not pretending to be expert writers of the target language. In my opinion, they should select an appropriate confidence level AND add a statement about not being a native speaker of the target language.
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Malik Beytek (X)
Local time: 12:38
| Honesty and enjoying it | Oct 5, 2006 |
If I'm not going to enjoy my participation in a web site activity and also be considered honest in doing that, then I'm not going to continue participating.
I enjoy answering questions involving the English language and I tend to think that in general I am perfectly capable of judging how sure I am about an answer that I provide, whether it is a matter of translation or other matter.
I am not misrepresenting myself in my profile. I have worked on English monolingual bas... See more If I'm not going to enjoy my participation in a web site activity and also be considered honest in doing that, then I'm not going to continue participating.
I enjoy answering questions involving the English language and I tend to think that in general I am perfectly capable of judging how sure I am about an answer that I provide, whether it is a matter of translation or other matter.
I am not misrepresenting myself in my profile. I have worked on English monolingual basis and the work involved fair amount of writing.
I have not yet arrived at a conclusion whether I should consider myself a native speaker of English or not . And I'm not going to repeat that every time I respond to a Kudoz question.
I am willing to try this, however, if the web site management wants me to, and see if I still enjoy the activity: I'll try to respond only to questions of those askers who are native speakers in the question's target language, e.g., French. That way, I won't be in any position to deceive any body; or have any chance to be dishonest. Right?
Is that fair?
If the web site management does not ask me specifically to do that, however, then I'm going to ignore all talk about dishonesty in the context I have discussed here. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Jande
Australija
Local time: 20:38
danski na engleski
+ ...
I find the initial post contradictory and difficult to understand.
You say you admire non natives answering questions, but you also say that they should never be allowed to give a 5 for their answers. Then you say you know some good bi-lingural people.
I totally disagree with the suggestion that someone who isn't native can't have a 5 or that they have to declare that they are not native when answering.
Each language pair has their askers and answerers to ... See more I find the initial post contradictory and difficult to understand.
You say you admire non natives answering questions, but you also say that they should never be allowed to give a 5 for their answers. Then you say you know some good bi-lingural people.
I totally disagree with the suggestion that someone who isn't native can't have a 5 or that they have to declare that they are not native when answering.
Each language pair has their askers and answerers to look out for.
I think you're talking about a specific incident or person/people here and not all non natives. Be careful not to take one incident and apply it to all.
[Edited at 2006-10-05 02:34]
[Edited at 2006-10-05 02:49] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Michele Fauble
Sjedinjene Američke Države
Local time: 02:38
norveški na engleski
+ ...
| Translations into "learner English" | Oct 5, 2006 |
maboumra wrote:
Who are these people!! and what exactly are they doing in the translation field?
Providing translations into "learner English" at ridiculously low rates ?
| | | | Francis Lee (X)
Local time: 10:38
njemački na engleski
+ ...
| Self-flagellation not required. Modesty is. | Oct 5, 2006 |
Sophia Hundt wrote:
It seems to me it's important that they have the option to indicate that they know something for sure.
As Kim points out, Sophia, this is beside the point here. And in any case, the CL is surely supposed to indicate confidence in your actual answer, i.e. not whether you understand the source term. What Lia is referring to, I assume, is the kind of question where the source term is clear to all.
Kim Mtzger wrote:
In my opinion, they should select an appropriate confidence level AND add a statement about not being a native speaker of the target language.
I'm not sure if adding a statement about your non-nativeness is necessary, given that this information is clearly visible under the Answerer's name. BUT of course we'd like to see - and this is what the original post is all about - "appropriate confidence levels".
The overwhelming majority of blatantly inflated confidence levels for German->English questions are from non-natives, who quite clearly OVERESTIMATE their command of the latter language. Disturbingly, most of them state the above as a working pair. But I digress ...
Example:
On a recent German-English Kudoz question, a German colleague gave a CL4 to an answer that was simply not English as a native would express it. When three natives (incl. myself) posted Disagrees with words to the above effect, this colleague responded to us all as follows: "Don't teach. Learn." !!!
From their credentials and past contributions to Kudoz, it's clear that this colleague is a good if not excellent Eng->Ger translator, but one who is evidently deluded about their active command of English. Not just that, but also somebody who themself is not willing to "learn".
There are many exceptions on the modesty front, may I stress - Thomas Pfann (above) being a notable one.
The problem intensifies when the Answerer is likewise a non-native. Some here have said: fine, leave them be. But is that ultimtely in the interests of the Proz/Kudoz site?
What do we do? Sell up or sell out ...
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Ara Mkrtchyan (X)
Armenija
Local time: 13:38
engleski na armenski
+ ...
| Sharing the concern | Oct 5, 2006 |
I agree that non-natives sometimes give not a very happy answer, but I also agree that prohibiting a non-native to give a Kudoz answer is not the best idea.
You are quite right differentiating between bilinguals and native speakers; I am myself a bilingual as Russian was a must for the ex-Soviet Union citizens, but I do not indicate Russian as my native language because my only real mother tongue is Armenian. I've been doing rather well-feedbacked technical and literature translations from... See more I agree that non-natives sometimes give not a very happy answer, but I also agree that prohibiting a non-native to give a Kudoz answer is not the best idea.
You are quite right differentiating between bilinguals and native speakers; I am myself a bilingual as Russian was a must for the ex-Soviet Union citizens, but I do not indicate Russian as my native language because my only real mother tongue is Armenian. I've been doing rather well-feedbacked technical and literature translations from and into Russian, but still, to the best of my belief, I am NOT a native Russian speaker, though quite often I see Armenian translators stating Russian as their native to attract more cleints just because they 'understand and speak the language'.
However, I take part in the Kudoz Q&A's for Russian realizing that my qualifications are competent to give an answer, but compared to Armenian pairs I indicate an appropriate, lower level of confidence, plus there's no need to write that I'm a Russian-second-native speaker since my native language is mentioned under my name, as said above.
I do share, though, the concern that there are rather non-competent, non-professionals that merely strive to get points by giving primitive answers (e.g. by copy-pasting an online dictionary translation which I could have done myself before asking!) and those who, being unable to provide an own answer, seek someone to agree with just to get Browniz for quoting, leaving the correctness of the answer aside. In one of the Armenian Kudoz qustions an erroneous answer was given prior to mine, and I posted my reply explaining the drawbacks of the first answer and proposed a more or less standard and correct translation. But before this, three translators had agreed to the first answer, there being nothing else to agree to, and when in the end my answer was chosen best, a 'professional' popped up to argue with with the asker 'who had ignored the opinion of three professionals'.
What I mean, finally, is that it is not important whether an answer is given by a native speaker or not. What does matter is the answer itself, its quality/correctness/adequacy.
Rgrds,
Ara Mkrtchyan ▲ Collapse
| | | | Mats Wiman
Švedska
Local time: 10:38
Član (2000)
njemački na švedski
+ ...
U sjećanje | Golden rule: Do not pass judgement on people, their motives and/or knowledge level | Oct 5, 2006 |
The brilliant idea behind KudoZ is to let members and users provide suggestions.
In order to help the asker you can pass judgement on an answer but that is all you should pass judgement on - period.
What is left is to be kept to yourself - period.
My definition of appropriate web behaviour.
| | | | Kirill Semenov
Ukrajina
Local time: 11:38
Član (2004)
engleski na ruski
+ ...
| Ah, another "golden rule" :) | Oct 5, 2006 |
Mats Wiman wrote:
The brilliant idea behind KudoZ is to let members and users provide suggestions.
In order to help the asker you can pass judgement on an answer but that is all you should pass judgement on - period.
What is left is to be kept to yourself - period.
My definition of appropriate web behaviour.
Thank you for opening our blind eyes, dear Mats! Yet another great excuse to do nothing when something wrong is happening...
| | | | Malik Beytek (X)
Local time: 12:38
| Clarification of my own remarks about Site Rule 3.7 -- and then some | Oct 5, 2006 |
yenigelen wrote:
Of course, Site Rules could always be revized - and I noticed, in that connection, Site Rule 3.7, by the way.
It was two or three a.m. or about so when I was typing that. I didn't want to say Site Rule 3.7 should be revized. I rather meant Site Rule should perhaps be observed in a way outside of Kudoz as well and in forums too.
Having said that, I should add I have come to better understand frustration of at least one Kudoz asker who complained about answers. How I came to understand that better - please don't ask.
However, I don't understand to any close degree the complaints from answerers. I mean other peoples' answers to a question relative to which I too am answerer don't seem to bother me, not much any way.
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Kim Metzger
Meksiko
Local time: 03:38
njemački na engleski
| Improving KudoZ | Oct 5, 2006 |
We've been brainstorming solutions for improving the overall quality of KudoZ answers from the very beginning, i.e. for the past seven or eight years, and we've seen many good ideas implemented over the years. KudoZ is better than it was years ago because of the ideas presented by members in this forum.
The rules now permit "purely linguistic" peer comments on answers: "Notes should be based solely on linguistic evaluation of answers provided." But in addition to pointing out purel... See more We've been brainstorming solutions for improving the overall quality of KudoZ answers from the very beginning, i.e. for the past seven or eight years, and we've seen many good ideas implemented over the years. KudoZ is better than it was years ago because of the ideas presented by members in this forum.
The rules now permit "purely linguistic" peer comments on answers: "Notes should be based solely on linguistic evaluation of answers provided." But in addition to pointing out purely linguistic problems with an answer, one should also be able to point out flaws in the process of arriving at a solution. We are translators and processes are as important as results. Experienced professionals can help inexperienced translators with these kinds of comments. Thus, telling a peer that his proposed French term was used at Chinese website could be a legitimate peer comment that is not strictly a linguistic comment.
Our rules have always been subject to change.
[Edited at 2006-10-05 15:30] ▲ Collapse
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