Feb 7, 2014 17:45
10 yrs ago
5 viewers *
Portuguese term

aves e pássaros

Portuguese to English Science Biology (-tech,-chem,micro-) animals
" Note que todos os pássaros são aves, mas nem todas as aves são pássaros. Os pássaros estão incluídos na ordem Passeriformes, constituindo a ordem mais rica, ou seja, com maior número de espécies dentro do grupo das aves."
this is aproject about the how to teach small children about the difference between "aves e "pássaros"

Discussion

Geoffrey Chan Feb 11, 2014:
Hi, Rachel. My entry should have said 'songbirds' rather than passerines but there was no way to go back and correct it. In any case, as Dasher alluded to, I think this discussion has reached its limit until we know more about how the asker actually intends to use the words (i.e. either in sequence or separately). Also, maybe the asker could provide more context to illuminate this detail about songbirds vs. perching birds. With the text that's been shown at least, I'd agree that for small children, perching birds doesn't sound as appropriate as songbirds.
Dasher Feb 11, 2014:
There are two problems with this "perching-non-perching approach". Firstly, children may not know what are "perching birds"; secondly, "non-perching" is working as a much restrictive definition, excluding, not including a characteristic (all other birds, such as preying birds, wading birds, and others). Another point is that it looks like the two words "aves" and "passarinhos" in the Portuguese text are not sequential. In case they are, Muriel's suggestion "songbirds and other birds" could be the more appropriate answer.
Rachel Fell Feb 10, 2014:
Small children don't use words like passerine (not most of them , anyway) and passerines are not all songbirds
Muriel Vasconcellos Feb 8, 2014:
songbirds vs./and *other* birds @Dasher and others. This has been my suggestion all along (except that I changed passarines to songbirds). *Other* solves the problem.
Edgar Potter Feb 8, 2014:
How "small"? "Passeriformes" does not seem to be a word one would use with really small children. I would translate in line with the whole document...at some point, they must understand what separates "birds" from "mammals", but some "birds" sing, many others do not. The final translation would depend on how "small" the children are and the general tenor and scientific detail of the document as a whole, as I see the problem.
Dasher Feb 8, 2014:
Although repetitive, over one million entries in the internet for "birds and songbirds", and ZERO entries for "avians and songbirds". Can anyone explain this difference? The main point in this riddle is, as the asker himself has put at some point in the discussion, that the words "aves" and "passarinhos" are not sequential. If they were, one could simply say "birds in general, and songbirds in particular".
Nick Taylor Feb 8, 2014:
Very informative article Muriel In the light of which, I have no idea how "small kids" can be made aware of the differences, frankly I am at a loss regarding the asker's question.
Muriel Vasconcellos Feb 8, 2014:
23 orders of birds Though numerous, passarines are only one of 23 orders of birds. See an interesting article at:
http://www.birds.com/species/classifications/
Dasher Feb 8, 2014:
Perfect!
Geoffrey Chan Feb 8, 2014:
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think that 'aves e pássaros' is not actually the term that's being sought, rather it's the use of each separate word within the entire paragraph to show the distinction between them. They are not being used together per se (side by side) in the text.

Here's how I'd translate the phrase that was originally quoted: "Note that all songbirds are birds, but not all birds are songbirds. Songbirds are part of the order of Passeriformes, constituting the richest order, that is, it has the largest number of species within a bird order." (using 'group' wouldn't be appropriate in this context because the text is referring to Linnaean classification).

Proposed translations

+3
15 mins
Selected

birds and passerines

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passerine

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Note added at 16 mins (2014-02-07 18:02:30 GMT)
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The common term for 'passerines' would be 'songbirds' (which may be more appropriate for children)
Peer comment(s):

agree Richard Purdom
23 mins
thanks!
agree Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida
35 mins
thanks!
agree Marlene Curtis
38 mins
thanks!
disagree Muriel Vasconcellos : Passarines are birds, too! It's not logical to say "birds AND passarines." My point is that you need to add "other" because passarines are also birds.
3 hrs
I suggested "songbirds" instead of "passerines" to show the distinction between this smaller ORDER of birds and the general CLASS of birds otherwise known as "Aves"
agree Mario Freitas : Sim, Muriel, e pássaros também são aves. Redundância no original = redundância na tradução.
4 days
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Selected automatically based on peer agreement."
+1
28 mins

fowl and birds

fowl and birds (it's for kids)
Peer comment(s):

agree Lumen (X)
3 hrs
thanks Lumen
neutral Pablo Julián Davis : Problem is 'aves' includes, but obviously is not limited to, fowl such as ducks and chickens; covers everything from ostrich to hummingbird... // And me!
10 hrs
Yes. I think the whole idea will totally confuse kids! It's confused me!!!
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3 hrs

passerines and/versus other birds

At first I thought of "fowl and passerines,"and I did find some examples (see below), BUT there are other types of birds as well--for example: raptors, shorebirds, alcids. In other words, passarines are birds, but they are a very small subset.

citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.387.6815...‎
by JL Goodson - ‎2012 - ‎Cited by 17 - ‎Related articles
Jan 13, 2012 - (**the largest of two avian clades that includes fowl and passerines**); and in fact, paternal care appears to be the ancestral condition for birds and ...

www.energy.ca.gov/.../HHSEGS_Append...
California Energy Commi...
**crowned night heron, and a variety of water fowl and passerines,** common raven, northwestern crow, desert tortoise, western fringed-toed lizard, Mojave ground ...



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Note added at 7 hrs (2014-02-08 01:29:01 GMT)
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I see that it's for kids, so "songbirds" might be more understandable, but then you're stuck with "songbirds and other birds."

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Note added at 7 hrs (2014-02-08 01:29:54 GMT)
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I insist that "other" is essential because we are talking about a subset of a larger category.
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+1
5 hrs

birds and songbirds

Embora "songbirds" = "pássaros canoros" seja uma designação genérica para "passarinhos" = "pássaros pequenos", já que entre estes encontram-se, também, as "perching birds" = "aves trepadoras", tipo "periquito", e outros passarinhos que não cantam, "songbird" é o que melhor descreve um passarinho para uma criança, que é o objetivo do projeto. No Brasil, quando se diz "passarinho", todos entendem que se está falando de "pequenas aves de canto". O mesmo ocorre em inglês, quando se diz "songbird". Todos entendem do que se trata, sem necessidade de outro complemento explicativo.

Se fosse um trabalho científico, entretanto, o autor teria de ser mais específico ao referir-se às aves em estudo, i.e., se trata-se de "wading birds" = "aves pernaltas", p.ex., "flamingo"; "water birds" = "aves aquáticas", p.ex., "cisne", e, além do mais, definir a que ordem pertencem [em "latim", como é de praxe].

O termo "fowl" -- solto --, embora, também, refira-se às aves em geral, traz primeiro à lembrança o aspecto culinário da ave, i.e., a sua carne, o que não se aplica ao caso. Alguém, fazendo uma descrição genérica de uma ave, poderia dizer "waterfowl", "wading fowl", etc.

Conquanto o autor faça uma ligeira referência ao termo "passeriform", "passerine" é um termo eminentemente científico", e soaria "grego" para um falante de inglês comum, principalmente para uma criança, à qual pretende-se explicar o que é um "passarinho".

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Note added at 10 hrs (2014-02-08 04:44:20 GMT)
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Para se fazer uma distinção, em inglês, entre pássaros de canto grandes e pequenos, diríamos "large songbirds" and "small songbirds", respectivamente, ou seja, "passarinhos grandes" e "passarinhos pequenos. Se não forem "de canto", pode-se, simplesmente, dizer "large perching birds" or "small perching birds", tentando dar a entender que "songbirds" estão excluídos dessa lista. That's to say, although all songbirds are perching birds, not all perching birds are songbirds.

Se não se quiser fazer distinções entre os diversos tipos de aves, pode-se, simplesmente, dizer: "large birds" or "small birds", o que incluiria todas as aves, pássaros e passarinhos, lembrando que esta não é uma definição científica.

Sutilezas das línguas.
Peer comment(s):

agree Pablo Julián Davis : Perfeitamente claro. Para modificar minha proposta: "Remember, all songbirds are birds (members of the class Aves), but not all birds are songbirds!
19 hrs
Obrigado, Pablo!
neutral Geoffrey Chan : Tem razão. Foi 'songbirds' a palavra que queria usar na verdade e não 'passerines', mas não tem como corrigir a resposta :)
23 hrs
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+1
11 hrs
Portuguese term (edited): aves | pássaros

avians | songbirds

"Remember, all songbirds are avians (members of the class Aves, birds of every feather!), but not all avians are songbirds..."

In English, a solution is needed that requires some creativity. One could say 'birds' vs 'songbirds', or 'birds as a whole' vs 'songbirds' but echo/repetition of 'birds', I think, undercuts the clarity of the distinction. I think 'avians', evoking as it does the Latin (and Spanish) 'aves', does a better job of making the distinction.

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_eng... : "avian Syllabification: a·vi·an
Pronunciation: /ˈāvēən. adjective : of or relating to birds: ‘avian tuberculosis’. noun : a bird. Origin : late 19th century: from Latin avis 'bird' + -an."

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/avian : "avian (plural avians) 1.A bird. 2.A bird-like or flying creature."

tolweb.org/Passeriformes‎ : Tree of Life Web Project : "The Passeriformes is the largest and most diverse commonly recognized ... commonly known as songbirds (oscine Passerines or Passeri)..."

* * *

dq.sf.org.nz/beastiary/avians.html‎ : "Common avians include buzzards, eagles, goshawks, owls. BUZZARD. Natural Habitat: Plains, waste..."

michaeldanielho.com/hummingbird-photography-tips.html‎ : "Hummingbirds belong to the family of birds known as Trochilidae. They are among the smallest avians, most species measure about 3 to 5 inches in length and ...

www.nomadart.com.au/?p=5791‎ : "Tales of the Avians is a visual carnival of warm-blooded, egg-laying, vertebrate animals with feathered wings, three primary and one accessory toe, keen sight, ...The collection includes etchings and screenprints created by a group of eclectic artists linked by a common interest in birds and a unique creative vision."

articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com › Collections‎ : "Greater Noida aquarium to display exotic marine species .... captive breeding of rare and endangered species of the avians for their protection, ... We can do the identification of bird's sex by extracting DNA from just a feather or a drop of blood ..."
Example sentence:

Remember, all songbirds are avians (members of the class Aves, birds of every feather!), but not all avians are songbirds. Songbirds are grouped in the order Passeriformes, which is the richest order -- the one with the greatest number of bird species.

Peer comment(s):

agree T o b i a s
6 hrs
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2 days 17 hrs

perching birds and non-perching birds


A passerine is a bird of the order Passeriformes, which includes more than half of all bird species. A notable feature of passerines is the arrangement of their toes (three pointing forward and one back) which facilitates perching. Sometimes known as perching birds or, less accurately, as songbirds, the passerines form one of the most diverse terrestrial vertebrate orders, with over 5,000 identified species.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passerine
http://www.mdahlem.net/birds/passer.php - showing examples of both types

The Passerines, or perching birds, is the biggest order of birds - over half of the world's bird species are passerines. The group includes flycatchers, birds of paradise, crows and all the familiar garden birds of Britain. Passerine birds have three forward pointing toes and one backwards pointing one.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/life/Passerine

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Note added at 2 days17 hrs (2014-02-10 10:55:46 GMT)
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from the mdahlem link:
Example passerine foothold: Pied Currawong
- three toes forward, one backward
Example non-passerine foothold: Budgerigar
- two toes forward, two backward
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