| Stranica u temi: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7] > | to Kudoz or not to Kudoz? that is the question Postavljač teme: Gad Kohenov
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| The payment suggestion | Jan 1, 2011 |
Jeff Whittaker wrote:
Sometime in the past, I suggested that members pay $1.00 per question and non-members pay $2.00 per question. (Maybe members can get one free question a month). The selected answerer would get .50 credit towards membership or other ProZ products and ProZ would earn .50 - 1.50 profit depending on the asker's membership status. This would reduce the number of questions asked (askers would do more research first) and would make it less profitable for people to accept jobs outside their field for .05 a word, especially since they may not get an acceptable answer, but that is the risk they take. Participation in answering would also increase.
"Participation in answering would also increase."
[Bold emphasis is mine.]
When we have so many complaints about the quality of answers, when we witness the undesirable behavior of the "point-grabbers" (rush answers, cut-throat atmosphere, etc.) day to day while there are only points to be gained, can you imagine what environment would it create if money was at stake???
Do we really want that?
Katalin
| | | | Neil Coffey 
Ujedinjeno Kraljevstvo
Local time: 03:49
francuski na engleski
+ ...
Krzysztof Kajetanowicz wrote:
Jeff Whittaker wrote:
Sometime in the past, I suggested that members pay $1.00 per question and non-members pay $2.00 per question. /quote]
This idea is spot on! It addresses pretty much all the problems outlined by desertfox, and more.
I think such a scheme could work and has certainly been discussed before. Indeed, I think I've spoken mildly in favour of the idea on such occasions.
However, it also depends a bit on how formally you view the KudoZ system. If you need something beyond a "quick, informal" level of consultancy on terminology, then there is also the option of advertising that required consultancy as a job.
One thing (and I've said this before) that I think could work is having more flexibility in how the "reputation" system works, with quailty answers being better rewarded and poor answers and questions being penalised. (One site I use has the interesting idea of a "bounty": saying in advance that you will put up X points-- possibly of your own-- for a quality answer.) But that doesn't necessarily mean the involvement of money.
| | | | Robert Forstag
Sjedinjene Američke Države
Local time: 22:49
španjolski na engleski
+ ...
| My suggestion | Jan 1, 2011 |
I do not support the idea of paying to ask a question on Kudoz.
Instead, I would suggest that the ratio of "questions asked to points" be used to classify certain individuals as those whose questions are automatically classified as "not for points." The ratio could be something like 20-to-1 or maybe 50-to-1.
I think that the relevant ratio in this regard has to be "questions asked to points" rather than "questions asked to questions answered," since anyone can thoughtl... See more I do not support the idea of paying to ask a question on Kudoz.
Instead, I would suggest that the ratio of "questions asked to points" be used to classify certain individuals as those whose questions are automatically classified as "not for points." The ratio could be something like 20-to-1 or maybe 50-to-1.
I think that the relevant ratio in this regard has to be "questions asked to points" rather than "questions asked to questions answered," since anyone can thoughtlessly toss off a poorly conceived answer, but it is more difficult to offer an answer that is actually awarded points.
Variations of such a system are possible as well. For example, if someone asks a designated number of questions within a one-month, or six-month time frame, then the "not-for-points" designation would kick in.
This would help reduce both the abuse of the system by incompetent translators and the artificial inflation of point totals of legitimate translators. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Rolf Kern
Švicarska
Local time: 04:49
engleski na njemački
+ ...
U sjećanje | Somebody took a job for which I quoted... | Jan 1, 2011 |
... and then asked a number of questions in KudoZ I would not have asked. I informed the outsourcer of this fact and promply got the next job on the same subject ).
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Gad Kohenov
Izrael
Local time: 05:49
engleski na hebrejski
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POKRETAČ TEME | Hello Shai and everyone else! | Jan 1, 2011 |
You were probably quite upset while writing this. You forgot to proofread your posting. But you can do it retroactively. I myself changed a mistake I found in one of mine.
I think a formula as suggested by Doron is not the answer, as commented already.
I think a line should appear under the name of those who don't answer saying:
"This answerer asked 100 questions and asnwered non". If that notice remains for a month and the person still does not answer he should be banned from ... See more You were probably quite upset while writing this. You forgot to proofread your posting. But you can do it retroactively. I myself changed a mistake I found in one of mine.
I think a formula as suggested by Doron is not the answer, as commented already.
I think a line should appear under the name of those who don't answer saying:
"This answerer asked 100 questions and asnwered non". If that notice remains for a month and the person still does not answer he should be banned from Kudoz for a period of 2 weeks. Just like I was banned once for arguing with someone, who since then does not dare show his "face" in Proz. By the way, he also asked and never answered. As you say Shai some people are not paying members and give no CV or anything about themselves. They can be a company which wants to get work done for it for free without being found out. They want to fill in the blanks as you call it. And make easy money. Sorry I paid too much to learn how to translate + 25 years of work. I don't intend to compete with amateurs or trainees.
The problem is that people don't know how to run a business financially.
There is a company that offers work on Proz and I never got it. Now I know why.
They have a prepared "Template" of a marriage certificate (for instance) and are ready to pay only for the words you have to fill in. Don't fall for it! Either they pay for it a global price (20$us for example) or tell them to take a hike! otherwise you will get 4.50$us that don't cover your PayPal commission!
You can't be an "artist" who knows nothing about money matters - not when you are a freelancer.
Maybe we should start a company with members from all around the world (each good in something else besides translation). And we should have strict rules (hard and fast principles, iron rules etc.) in short a policy which everyone will try to maintain to the best of their ability. That way we will be able to get independent and be respected. Here in Israel translation is not considered a profession. Reaction-I don't work here anymore! pure and simple. Result - I saved myself a lot of hassle and humiliation. | translated dozens of books here for next to nothing. Last time I was offered a book translation I told the publisher to exploit beginners. Last book I remember doing was in 1992. I wish there was an internet back then.
Companies who tell me there is a crisis and I should charge more get this answer: so you can raise your profit? Yes there is a crisis. And from my point of view it will get worse. The European Union will collapse. No Marshall Plan this time. Why? the USA has played its role as superpower. Every major empire fell from the moment its economy began to plummet, starting with the Roman Empire. We didn't create the crisis and we are not supposed to suffer from it just because we are at the bottom of the food chain! We do all the work and middlemen want too large a cut of it.
Proz thinks of getting as many members as possible even at the expense of quality. They shouldn't do it. This harms their reputation in the long run. If nothing is done I predict the good translators will not renew their membership. If the 10 best Kudoz answerers in Kudoz (in every language) abstained from answering for one week only, I am sure the hint will be taken! Otherwise we will have to check every asker by ourselves and that takes the fun out of this work which is difficult as it is.
We are paid with Euros and $us which go down every day. Maybe we would ask for payment by Israeli Shekels. The strongest currency right now. Otherwise if you wait for a month (at least) for payment you get less than you was supposed to.
Only a worldwide movement will change our condition. Otherwise we will be always treated as "upgraded typists". ▲ Collapse
| | | | Gad Kohenov
Izrael
Local time: 05:49
engleski na hebrejski
+ ...
POKRETAČ TEME
This is an isolated case. I figured out if the agnecy is so stupid, let them continue to work with that amateur. It was all the fault of a miser client. I asked what they always paid me. Let them get second rate work.
D.F.
| | | | R.C. (X)
Local time: 04:49
engleski na talijanski
+ ...
[I think a line should appear under the name of those who don't answer saying:
"This answerer asked 100 questions and answered none].
seriously: AGREE
[I don't intend to compete with amateurs or trainees.]
seriously: well some questions ARE tough regardless of the asker. My point in this case is that if the asker typed the word/s searching it via Google or another reliable search engine, 90% he/she would get an answer useful to understand what the tex... See more [I think a line should appear under the name of those who don't answer saying:
"This answerer asked 100 questions and answered none].
seriously: AGREE
[I don't intend to compete with amateurs or trainees.]
seriously: well some questions ARE tough regardless of the asker. My point in this case is that if the asker typed the word/s searching it via Google or another reliable search engine, 90% he/she would get an answer useful to understand what the text means - also very TECHNICAL hard questions.
[The problem is that people don't know how to run a business financially].
seriously: this is my problem.... but......
[Maybe we should start a company with members from all around the world (each good in something else besides translation). And we should have strict rules (hard and fast principles, iron rules etc.) in short a policy which everyone will try to maintain to the best of their ability. ]
(not too serious) good.... I can knit and cook decently.... but for the mayonnaise gone crazy tonight because of this forum!
[ If the 10 best Kudoz answerers in Kudoz (in every language) abstained from answering for one week only, I am sure the hint will be taken! Otherwise we will have to check every asker by ourselves and that takes the fun out of this work which is difficult as it is.]
seriously: AGREE.
R.C.
p.s. sorry I am not sure whether you have to be the last one to wrote about the topic YOU have issued......
[Edited at 2011-01-01 23:23 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Robert Forstag
Sjedinjene Američke Države
Local time: 22:49
španjolski na engleski
+ ...
| Another idea... | Jan 1, 2011 |
...in the context of this discussion is to require all newcomers to the site (and perhaps those that fall within a category of a ridiculously high "asked-to-points" ratio) to take some sort of pre-packaged webinar provided by proz.com that explains how the Kudoz system is to be properly used, and also to remind users that abuse of the system is something that does not help their professional reputations--or their standing with their colleagues.
Questions from newcomers could automa... See more ...in the context of this discussion is to require all newcomers to the site (and perhaps those that fall within a category of a ridiculously high "asked-to-points" ratio) to take some sort of pre-packaged webinar provided by proz.com that explains how the Kudoz system is to be properly used, and also to remind users that abuse of the system is something that does not help their professional reputations--or their standing with their colleagues.
Questions from newcomers could automatically be registered as "not for points" until such time as they have complied with such a requirement.
Just a thought. ▲ Collapse
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veratek
Brazil
Local time: 23:49
francuski na engleski
+ ...
| I think the ratio or payment suggestions are ridiculous | Jan 1, 2011 |
I didn't see any suggestions in this thread that would improve the current KudoZ system.
At least from what I can see in the languages I look at, questions are answered very quickly, and often the first three answers do the job. So, if you have more important things to do than sitting at your computer, logged onto the Internet, waiting to be able to answer a question, by the time you actually have time to interrupt what you are doing to look into a question, it's often been answere... See more I didn't see any suggestions in this thread that would improve the current KudoZ system.
At least from what I can see in the languages I look at, questions are answered very quickly, and often the first three answers do the job. So, if you have more important things to do than sitting at your computer, logged onto the Internet, waiting to be able to answer a question, by the time you actually have time to interrupt what you are doing to look into a question, it's often been answered.
I think it's best that people make their own decisions as to whom they want to help on Kudoz. If you don't like the fact that someone asks a lot of questions, don't help.
Personally I think encouraging others not to help KudoZ questions is unseeming. Inserting money into the equation would only make it go completely downhill--fast.
[Edited at 2011-01-02 08:58 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | LEXpert
Sjedinjene Američke Države
Local time: 21:49
Član (2008)
hrvatski na engleski
+ ...
| Rolf's case not isolated case at all! | Jan 1, 2011 |
desertfox wrote:
This is an isolated case. I figured out if the agnecy is so stupid, let them continue to work with that amateur. It was all the fault of a miser client. I asked what they always paid me. Let them get second rate work.
D.F.
Actually, it would not be an isolated case at all! I have seen it happen many times (at least once on a job I was asked to quote on and declined, in other cases I've seen it happen on posted jobs I didn't bother to quote on). It often occurs in fields where the proposition of a lowest-bidder translation is downright frightening, e.g., medical equipment manuals.
| | | | Oliver Walter
Ujedinjeno Kraljevstvo
Local time: 03:49
njemački na engleski
+ ...
Enrique wrote:
This information is currently available. Please see the following FAQ.
Enrique
In that FAQ, I suggest correcting "the amount of questions" to "the number of questions".
Oliver
| | | | Ildiko Santana
Sjedinjene Američke Države
Local time: 21:49
Član (2002)
mađarski na engleski
+ ...
MODERATOR | let us be equals | Jan 2, 2011 |
Jeff Whittaker wrote:
Sometime in the past, I suggested that members pay $1.00 per question and non-members pay $2.00 per question. (Maybe members can get one free question a month). is would reduce the number of questions asked (askers would do more research first) and would make it less profitable for people to accept jobs outside their field for .05 a word, especially since they may not get an acceptable answer, but that is the risk they take. Participation in answering would also increase. [/quote]
Hi Jeff,
I fully support your suggestion, I think it's a great idea. I would even take it a step further: If *answerers* were also required to pay, say, a dollar or 50 cents per *answer*, this would reduce the number of weak guesses and utterly useless answers, i.e. those posted not for the sake of helping but strictly to gain virtual points; it would also swiftly and effectively take care of the annoyance currently being caused by the habitual googlers & point-hunters who answer nearly every question ever posted, regardless of the specialty field or their expertise and skills (or lack of). This way we could also greatly improve the overall quality of terms added to the glossaries (which has been dropping lately). I make a fairly decent income as a freelance translator, thanks to the continuous flow of jobs, some of which actually end up in my inbox through this site, so it certainly wouldn't hurt me to spare a couple dollars a month on answering the few questions that are right up my alley.
Have a prosperous and Happy New Year everyone!
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Ildiko Santana
Sjedinjene Američke Države
Local time: 21:49
Član (2002)
mađarski na engleski
+ ...
MODERATOR | not-for-points IS the answer | Jan 2, 2011 |
Robert Forstag wrote:
Questions from newcomers could automatically be registered as "not for points"
Brilliant! In fact, this should be extended to all questions and all participants (who is to qualify users as 'newcomer' and 'old-timer', anyway). I believe there is some initiative already in the making to achieve this.
| | | | Yaotl Altan
Meksiko
Local time: 20:49
Član (2006)
engleski na španjolski
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Kudoz are a good award for translators who help others, BUT...this Kudoz goal is motivating a Kudoz-mania where the only purpose is accumulation, getting more Kudoz, many times with out quality.
Acceptance ratio is required urgently! Yes, I prefer to receive help from translators whose references are highly valuated, i.e, 9 out of 10. Perhaps, there may be translators with 98 accepted entries out of 2458.... ... See more Kudoz are a good award for translators who help others, BUT...this Kudoz goal is motivating a Kudoz-mania where the only purpose is accumulation, getting more Kudoz, many times with out quality.
Acceptance ratio is required urgently! Yes, I prefer to receive help from translators whose references are highly valuated, i.e, 9 out of 10. Perhaps, there may be translators with 98 accepted entries out of 2458....
Users, clients, et al. should be able to choose the sort of translations according to these two parameters: Kudoz and acceptance rate. I would always use acceptance ratio.
[Edited at 2011-01-02 01:07 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Gad Kohenov
Izrael
Local time: 05:49
engleski na hebrejski
+ ...
POKRETAČ TEME
Introducing money into the Kudoz-mania will only make things worse. Many good people will simply leave this website forever.
Leaving the decision whether to answer or not to individual translators does not work either.
In the end there is always someone who comes along and answers the question.
Some people joined Proz in the first place only because this is a Paradise for them.
They just have to fill in the blanks here. We do it all for them. They work for "best prices" a... See more Introducing money into the Kudoz-mania will only make things worse. Many good people will simply leave this website forever.
Leaving the decision whether to answer or not to individual translators does not work either.
In the end there is always someone who comes along and answers the question.
Some people joined Proz in the first place only because this is a Paradise for them.
They just have to fill in the blanks here. We do it all for them. They work for "best prices" and we collect Kudoz points. That's like working for free. We should not answer these people until such a time they understand Paradise has become
'Paradise Lost". Nobody can force us to answer questions at all. A kudoz strike for one week is the only way of abstaining from the "basic instinct/addiction" of answering any question in order to improve our standing in the race for points.
Convincing chronic answerers to desist gave no results.
We should get it into our heads and the heads of the clientele: translation is a profession not a refuge for any person who knows English and another language and lost their job. And getting rid of this unfair competition is a serious step towards achievement of that goal.
D.F. ▲ Collapse
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