| Stranica u temi: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7] > | to Kudoz or not to Kudoz? that is the question Postavljač teme: Gad Kohenov
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TFaulkner 
Sjedinjene Američke Države
Local time: 18:21
Član (2010)
engleski na portugalski
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| More than 30 questions in 5 days or so | Jan 2, 2011 |
A "translator" from one of my language pairs has posted more than 30 questions in 5 days or so(I stopped counting). Some of the "questions" did not regard specific terms, and were to be "translated in full".
This person's profile does not offer much information, and (what a surprise!) not a single question has been answered by such professional.
That said, I could not agree more with Shai's suggestions.
[Edited at 2011-01-02 16:37 GMT]
[Edi... See more A "translator" from one of my language pairs has posted more than 30 questions in 5 days or so(I stopped counting). Some of the "questions" did not regard specific terms, and were to be "translated in full".
This person's profile does not offer much information, and (what a surprise!) not a single question has been answered by such professional.
That said, I could not agree more with Shai's suggestions.
[Edited at 2011-01-02 16:37 GMT]
[Edited at 2011-01-02 17:09 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Did you alert the Moderator? | Jan 2, 2011 |
Tais Faulkner wrote:
A "translator" from one of my language pairs has posted more than 30 questions in 5 days or so(I stopped counting). The "questions" did not regard specific terms, but entire sentences to be translated in full.
Such questions are not in line with the KudoZ rules, and should be removed.
Have you contacted the Moderator or site staff about it?
Katalin
| | | | Laurent KRAULAND (X)
Francuska
Local time: 01:21
francuski na njemački
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| A parallel with economic rules | Jan 2, 2011 |
One economic rule I remember well can also be applied to sites such at ProZ.com: "Bad money chases good money away."
I feel that, no matter what will be done, things have gone a bit too far and that every improvement is but an emergency solution.
| | | | | Fuller profiles | Jan 2, 2011 |
Tais Faulkner wrote:
This person's profile does not offer much information, and (what a surprise!) not a single question has been answered by such professional.
[Edited at 2011-01-02 16:37 GMT]
[Edited at 2011-01-02 17:09 GMT]
One of the things that I suggested in the Kudoz survey was that askers shouldn't be allowed to ask questions in languages pairs that were not backed up by information on their profile, e.g. samples of their work, credentials and education (and not just GCSE !). One of the first things I look for in a profile is a sample - and often there is none.
I also think it helps reinforce their credibility if askers have participated in forums - to me, this shows a commitment to the profession.
No samples, no forum posts, no answers? It's about give & take, not just take.
Sarah
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Ildiko Santana
Sjedinjene Američke Države
Local time: 18:21
Član (2002)
mađarski na engleski
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MODERATOR | Let's not overdo it | Jan 2, 2011 |
Krzysztof, you are right. I admit I got carried away and posted my sarcastic comments out of frustration. All this talk and I don't think we are getting anywhere. It has been expressed by colleagues many times before and it is also my opinion that our KudoZ-related problems could only be solved by eliminating the point system and the distinction between "pro" and "non-pro" altogether. Staff has already indicated that this will not happen. So the topic-starter does have a good point, "to KudoZ or... See more Krzysztof, you are right. I admit I got carried away and posted my sarcastic comments out of frustration. All this talk and I don't think we are getting anywhere. It has been expressed by colleagues many times before and it is also my opinion that our KudoZ-related problems could only be solved by eliminating the point system and the distinction between "pro" and "non-pro" altogether. Staff has already indicated that this will not happen. So the topic-starter does have a good point, "to KudoZ or not to KudoZ? that is the question." ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Reply to desertfox | Jan 2, 2011 |
desertfox wrote:
I still remember Skyping you when I first tested my Skype connection around 5-6 years ago. I also happen to answer in the Spanish>English pair. I even managed to snatch points from the great Henry Hinds several times. People tend to give so much respect to people with his great number of points that it became a conditioned relfex. I give the point to the best answer not to the generally better translator, let alone better Kudozian.
What you call inexperienced translators are many times people with no professional diploma whatsoever. They have no right in calling themselves translators. Why can't people be laywers etc. without studies and a diploma? Why should translation be a second-rate profession for people who were fired from work or who reach retirement age? Don't be too generous. We are not in the 60s now.
The young generation is different. They don't respect anyone or anything (not everyone of course!). Asking 100 legal questions and answering none? Why don't I do their translation for them for free and everyone will be happy?
Anyway, translators are individualists and I doubt anything operational will be achieved here. And of course every pair of language I Kudoz in is has different people. British fair play in the Middle East (for example)? Give me a break!
Saludos,
D.F.
Yes, I remember our very enjoyable conversation, desertfox, though I'm sorry I can't remember your proper name. But I still have to disagree. I don't have a degree or a diploma so it would not be right for me to begrudge help to other people. And I personally don't think the younger generation is any worse than we ever were.
| | | | kittilina
Španjolska
Local time: 01:21
španjolski na engleski
I agree that there are many askers who do not answer, but I think most people know who they are now. There are always pointers! I think that good Kudoz answers, whilst they may not directly "give" you anything, are often looked at by potential sources of work - usually the ones worth having will check out your profile, CV AND the Kudoz questions you have answered. It's a good gauge for someone that doesn't know you re how professional you are and the quality of answer (and therefore translati... See more I agree that there are many askers who do not answer, but I think most people know who they are now. There are always pointers! I think that good Kudoz answers, whilst they may not directly "give" you anything, are often looked at by potential sources of work - usually the ones worth having will check out your profile, CV AND the Kudoz questions you have answered. It's a good gauge for someone that doesn't know you re how professional you are and the quality of answer (and therefore translation) you are likely to give. There are many many translators out there who are professional (in attitude) and really only ask questions when they are stuck. Does anyone remember starting out in the dark ages before internet when there was no help at all?????? (Yes I remember this, it must be an age thing!!)
Happy New Year to all! ▲ Collapse
| | | | Rolf Kern
Švicarska
Local time: 01:21
engleski na njemački
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U sjećanje | Isolated case | Jan 2, 2011 |
desertfox wrote:
This is an isolated case. I figured out if the agnecy is so stupid, let them continue to work with that amateur. It was all the fault of a miser client. I asked what they always paid me. Let them get second rate work.
D.F.
No, this was not quite the situation. The agency was not stupid, but the translator was stupid, to accept the tight delay specified by the agency, which I did not accept.
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Gad Kohenov
Izrael
Local time: 02:21
engleski na hebrejski
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POKRETAČ TEME
I remember the days before computers came along! No P.Cs. Only a pen or a typing machines. And opening and closing dictionaries which developed my muscles. And the nubmer of dictonaries! compared with Babylon, The Hopeli, The Termium etc.
You miss the point. Agencies can look at your Kudoz position but still prefer to pay half the price to the "clone" (asker who gets the tough terms from us and does the fill in the blanks). The economic situation is to blame here. I talked above about mise... See more I remember the days before computers came along! No P.Cs. Only a pen or a typing machines. And opening and closing dictionaries which developed my muscles. And the nubmer of dictonaries! compared with Babylon, The Hopeli, The Termium etc.
You miss the point. Agencies can look at your Kudoz position but still prefer to pay half the price to the "clone" (asker who gets the tough terms from us and does the fill in the blanks). The economic situation is to blame here. I talked above about miser clients. Tight budgets are getting on my nerves. Prices go up all the time and we are supposed to do the work for less and less? Predictions are that 1$us could become 0.10$us with the second wave of crash which is supposed to make 2008 look like a Paradise. I told people here (personally) about 2008 before it started. Result? no one believed me and they lost what they lost I supposed. But this time it will be "the big one". Be sure to have cash at hand. Banks will refuse to let people have their hard earned cash. Too let for buying gold and silver coins or bars (Indians and Chinese bought and buy them like the end of the world is coming!). What is left: gold and silver stocks (the good kind). Since no one believed me I learned my lesson. I keep my information for myself. These weisenheimers thought I was joking or trying to rip them off. Sure I will lose my reputation here. I build it during 25 years. I am not about to lose it. You lose your reputation and you are left with nothing. Some thought I will give the information for free. I didn't get (still getting) if for free and let them try to get to the tycoons who run this 'rescue operation' - they will be kicked out.
I will take care of myself and close family only. The others can't even get organized regarding Kudoz. Let them try to weather the coming storm with Kudoz points!
You are giving away your hard earned knowledge for free to people who compete with you. You are a fifth column in your own camp! I will answer those who contribute, even by giving a wrong answer. At least the person tried. I also gave wrong answers sometimes. But I do my best not to. But spending so much time, sometimes at the expense of my own work, on helping people who joined Proz just in order to ab(use) Koduz? Not any more. I woluld better look for direct clients during that time. The problem with direct clients is that they want an agency near them to take care of everything for them. They would pay the agency 0.30$ cents or more instead of paying you 0.20$us (less expensive and a direct contact with the translators).
This is not about participating in a forum. It's about getting what you deserve for this honest work called translation. Creating a text anew in another language. A kind of miracle. How do you want to survive the brewing economic catastrophe if you can't cooperate?
Think about this before you go to sleep tonight. A translator is not a surgeon and not a typist. He/she should be placed higher on the scale. And don't let the scare you with machine translaton that will replace human beings. I heard that in January 1986, wheh I started to translate officially. They will find every excuse to belittle you.
I am sure this goes for most countries.
I hope 2011 will not be as bleak as my gurus say, but they were right every step of the way until now. Gloom and doom guys? let's wait and see.
D.F. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Heinrich Pesch
Finska
Local time: 02:21
Član (2003)
finski na njemački
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| Do not see the point | Jan 2, 2011 |
You can stop answering when you feel your position in the proz search engine is good enough. For Proz the Kudoz system generates traffic and improves the perceived business value of the site.
If you never need to ask any questions because you are so good you should opt out of Kudoz all together.
| | | | Caryl Swift
Poljska
Local time: 01:21
poljski na engleski
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| Asker 'quality' | Jan 3, 2011 |
Perhaps I've missed something in the discussion? But I always feel some concern when things take a turn toward evaluations or other devices which have their bases in 'how many answers accepted' and so forth - but which fail to take into account the varying askers' varying abilities to judge what may or may not constitute an appropriate answer...
And please, don't let's now start another sub-thread about unique contexts and so forth. Because that's not my main point. My comment is fi... See more Perhaps I've missed something in the discussion? But I always feel some concern when things take a turn toward evaluations or other devices which have their bases in 'how many answers accepted' and so forth - but which fail to take into account the varying askers' varying abilities to judge what may or may not constitute an appropriate answer...
And please, don't let's now start another sub-thread about unique contexts and so forth. Because that's not my main point. My comment is firmly set within the general thrust of this discussion - which, if I've understood it correctly, is mainly focussed on askers who find themselves somewhat out of their depth.
In such a case, why would we wish to inflict penalties on competent answerers whose competence goes unrecognised by the asker?
It's also true, of course, that there are occasions when several wholly valid answers are suggested and a competent asker chooses the one that best suits their specific text.
So why should we dream up a system that penalises those who have provided equally valid answers, the end result of which is a much richer glossary?
One way and another, it seems to me that there are more than enough deterrents as it is. So, my two small denominational coins' worth would be - please don't let's forget that an unselected answer doesn't necessarily invalidate the person who provides it...
Happy New Year!
[Edited at 2011-01-03 00:29 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Shai Navé
Izrael
Local time: 02:21
engleski na hebrejski
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| It is not to penalize the answerers | Jan 3, 2011 |
Hello Caryl,
To me, the main topic of this discussion is Kudoz abuse. In order to try and change things, we (the ones that agree that the current status is less than ideal) throw some ideas around with suggestions on how to address the issue. This is just an open discussion.
I agree with what you are saying, but we cannot as part of the discussion we cannot ignore the ones called "Point grabbers" - who abuse Kudoz and the community in their own way.
I think that that the best ... See more Hello Caryl,
To me, the main topic of this discussion is Kudoz abuse. In order to try and change things, we (the ones that agree that the current status is less than ideal) throw some ideas around with suggestions on how to address the issue. This is just an open discussion.
I agree with what you are saying, but we cannot as part of the discussion we cannot ignore the ones called "Point grabbers" - who abuse Kudoz and the community in their own way.
I think that that the best solution is a joint approach:
1. Give Kudoz much less importance in the ranking;
2. Apply more strict limitations;
3. Educate translation about how to run a business - as an independent contractor you are not only the professional doing the job, you are also the administrator, manager, and director of your business. I'm sure, actually I know, that some people answer questions of incompetent members just because they don't understand the indirect influence it will have on them in the long run. Similarly, many charge low rates because they don't understand any better and out of a (wrong) survival instinct (if don't get much work with these rates, how can I get work with higher ones...) completely unaware of the type of clientele they will attract, not considering the overhead of running a business, and many more "rookie" mistakes. Some just stay that way, and although being great professionals, they indirectly hurt themselves (working long hours for low compensation) and the industry. Answering people who abuse the Kudoz system, the ones I call a "Contextual Machine Translation" is, in my opinion, an example of such bad business conduct. A few posts back I gave an example that I find very relevant. Can you imagine Microsoft giving away its knowledge and experience for anyone who just happened to have started a software company after spending few days reading "Establishing a Software Company for dummies"?
Granted, any mechanism that might be introduced (such as the suggested ratio, which to me is still a great idea) will probably create their own issues and "unfairness" in certain situations. In the end it will probably be a matter of some kind of trade-off, not perfect but should at least in theory be better than the current situation. In a perfect world Kudoz would have worked great as it is, but this is not the case, at least in my perspective.
I truly hope that Proz will pick up this discussion, as part of what seem to be a new Kudoz initiative (see survey at the homepage), and advance it to a more practical stage. Then, if and when, we could examine each and every suggested remedy and its potential implications, more carefully.
Dear Heinrich,
The issue is not one's needs or preferences, but the Kudoz system and its effects in general. Ignoring the situation might work for some, but it won't change nor eliminate the current (and less current) undesirable trends in Kuduz usage. To me, in many aspects Kudoz is a micro-representation of the status and trends of the industry itself).
[Edited at 2011-01-03 01:54 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Cetacea
Švicarska
Local time: 01:21
engleski na njemački
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| The matter in a nutshell | Jan 3, 2011 |
Heinrich Pesch wrote:
For Proz the Kudoz system generates traffic and improves the perceived business value of the site.
Exactly! But what about the professional value of the site? When generating traffic is all that matters, things go downhill fast. And they have been going downhill for a while...
| | | | Annett Hieber
Njemačka
Local time: 01:21
engleski na njemački
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that Kudoz is abused by many self-appointed professional translators.
My way to deal with it is to ask a question when I cannot find a solution to my
problem by research anywhere else, and I always appreciate the (mostly) competent
answers of my colleagues. They have helped me often in really difficult cases. On the
other hand I have a look at the questions when I can take the time, and, when I think
I can make a useful contribution, I post an answer. In cas... See more that Kudoz is abused by many self-appointed professional translators.
My way to deal with it is to ask a question when I cannot find a solution to my
problem by research anywhere else, and I always appreciate the (mostly) competent
answers of my colleagues. They have helped me often in really difficult cases. On the
other hand I have a look at the questions when I can take the time, and, when I think
I can make a useful contribution, I post an answer. In cases, I see someone posting one
question after the other I do not care to answer, because I am not willing to do their
work.
I hope there will be a good solution for this problem!
And a HAPPY NEW YEAR to all of you!
Annett ▲ Collapse
| | | | Gad Kohenov
Izrael
Local time: 02:21
engleski na hebrejski
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POKRETAČ TEME | cetacea & Annette | Jan 3, 2011 |
Concise and to the point!
What annette says is already a step in the right direction, provided all "heavy" answerers can stay away from their "addiction".
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