| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | Off topic: Proof-reader's mistakes Thread poster: Fan Gao
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ysun 
United States
Local time: 07:55
English to Chinese
+ ...
xinlu ma wrote: Yueyin Sun wrote:
jyuan_us,
你说的有一定道理，但我觉得这句话原文就有问题。若按照语法死抠，它的意思就是：“请带你的小孩去看一位1至2岁的牙医”。:D
也许比较合理的说法是：The first dental visit of your children should occur when they are between age 1 and 2.
谢谢替我说好话。:) 毕竟在一个地方待过，这话暖人心啊！ 什么？原来只是个玩笑！－－才看到标题$#$^@ [Edited at 2006-10-13 04:20]
xinlu,
欢迎你这位新朋友。我在上面把“Please bring your child to see a dentist between age 1 and 2”这句话，故意译成“请带你的小孩去看一位1至2岁的牙医”，显然是在开玩笑。但我说“这句话原文就有问题”，并非是开玩笑。若单纯从语法上讲，修饰“child”的“between age 1 and 2”应紧跟在“child”之后，而不是放在“dentist”之后。请与以下这句比较：
The insurance plan also pays the full cost of prescriptions for children under 18 and single students between age 18 and 26.
不过，尽管那句话原文有问题，译者应仍能理解其真正含义而作出较好的翻译。大家讨论一下这类问题，对于提高水平、加强合作是有益的。至于谁对谁错，不必太在意。
| | | | peiling
Germany
Local time: 14:55
Chinese to English
+ ...
那么是不是翻译的时候应该把'对'的句子翻译出来,或者是照原文'错'的翻译?就象您所说,这个句子还不太'严重'.我见过真正离谱的,而我当时的做法是翻译了'对'的句子,然后跟客户说一声原文有问题.
Yueyin Sun wrote:
xinlu,
欢迎你这位新朋友。我在上面把“Please bring your child to see a dentist between age 1 and 2”这句话，故意译成“请带你的小孩去看一位1至2岁的牙医”，显然是在开玩笑。但我说“这句话原文就有问题”，并非是开玩笑。若单纯从语法上讲，修饰“child”的“between age 1 and 2”应紧跟在“child”之后，而不是放在“dentist”之后。请与以下这句比较：
The insurance plan also pays the full cost of prescriptions for children under 18 and single students between age 18 and 26.
不过，尽管那句话原文有问题，译者应仍能理解其真正含义而作出较好的翻译。大家讨论一下这类问题，对于提高水平、加强合作是有益的。至于谁对谁错，不必太在意。
[Edited at 2006-10-13 15:40]
| | | | ysun
United States
Local time: 07:55
English to Chinese
+ ...
Pei Ling Haussecker wrote:
那么是不是翻译的时候应该把'对'的句子翻译出来,或者是照原文'错'的翻译?就象您所说,这个句子还不太'严重'.我见过真正离谱的,而我当时的做法是翻译了'对'的句子,然后跟客户说一声原文有问题.
Pei Ling,
我认为你的做法是对的，但前提是你必须有十分把握，肯定原文是错了。如果没有十分把握，最好事先问一下客户，尤其是专业性较强的文章，例如学术论文、专利等。切不可自以为是，按照自己的理解去大胆假设，因为也有可能原文并没有错，而是我们自己理解错了。但当你就原文的错误提出问题，而且客户发现确实是原文错了时，一般他们会很感激，而且会对你的水平更有信心。
至于上面那句话，比较简单。如果谁真的把它译成“请带你的小孩去看一位1至2岁的牙医”，客户就会说他连common sense都没有，那就别指望客户以后会再让他干活了，尽管他可以争辩说这样译是有语法根据的。;)
| | | | peiling
Germany
Local time: 14:55
Chinese to English
+ ...
那当然.客户后来也承认是原文出错.不过你的顾虑我当然也明白,我不可能轻易改原文的. 说到底就是需要跟客户澄清是吧.
Yueyin Sun wrote:
Pei Ling,
我认为你的做法是对的，但前提是你必须有十分把握，肯定原文是错了。如果没有十分把握，最好事先问一下客户，尤其是专业性较强的文章，例如学术论文、专利等。切不可自以为是，按照自己的理解去大胆假设，因为也有可能原文并没有错，而是我们自己理解错了。但当你就原文的错误提出问题，而且客户发现确实是原文错了时，一般他们会很感激，而且会对你的水平更有信心。
至于上面那句话，比较简单。如果谁真的把它译成“请带你的小孩去看一位1至2岁的牙医”，客户就会说他连common sense都没有，那就别指望客户以后会再让他干活了，尽管他可以争辩说这样译是有语法根据的。;)
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Wenjer Leuschel (X)
Taiwan
Local time: 20:55
English to Chinese
+ ...
Yueyin Sun wrote:
Pei Ling,
我认为你的做法是对的，但前提是你必须有十分把握，肯定原文是错了。如果没有十分把握，最好事先问一下客户，尤其是专业性较强的文章，例如学术论文、专利等。切不可自以为是，按照自己的理解去大胆假设，因为也有可能原文并没有错，而是我们自己理解错了。但当你就原文的错误提出问题，而且客户发现确实是原文错了时，一般他们会很感激，而且会对你的水平更有信心。
至于上面那句话，比较简单。如果谁真的把它译成“请带你的小孩去看一位1至2岁的牙医”，客户就会说他连common sense都没有，那就别指望客户以后会再让他干活了，尽管他可以争辩说这样译是有语法根据的。;)
孫兄：
抱歉，插個嘴。你的意見和我的相近，也許是年齡的緣故吧。
翻譯者發現原文錯誤，客戶及終端客戶肯定都會感謝；即使沒有百分之百把握是錯誤，至少該在定稿前提出疑問，向客戶說明疑問由來，讓客戶或終端客戶裁決。常識上的錯誤倒不必如此，自行修改了就是；如果連打字上的小錯誤和小語病都要向客戶報告，那就太麻煩。
此外，對別人的語病如果採取 "garbage in, garbage out" 譯法 ，那是非常不討好的做法，等於是在笑話原文撰稿人或終端客戶或仲介客戶。一般遇到那類的錯誤，翻譯者在譯文裡一聲不響把錯誤糾正即可。
其實，審稿時遇上這類的錯誤也應不作聲修改就是；如果拿來責難譯者，那就有惡意打擊譯者的嫌疑，不是可取的合作態度。
至於專業理解，那是另外一回事。我自己的經驗是，承認自己的不足，虛心向客戶提出對原文推理的懷疑，一般都會得到很好的響應，客戶不會認為翻譯者知識水平低，而會認為翻譯者用心在推敲原文真正用意，這會讓客戶更願意把稿件交給他做。當然，這是說懂行的仲介客戶，不懂行的還要再次向終端客戶求證，有些是會嫌麻煩的；但這種仲介客戶屬於買空賣空的客戶，不會是好客戶，趕快尋找比他更好的客戶為要。
Professional translators 和其它行業的 professionals 完全一樣，只是「拿人錢財，替人消災」。律師拿人錢財，根據法律的規範替人辯護；醫生拿人錢財，根據醫學的規範替人診斷、救治；水電工拿人錢財，根據電工原理、管線布置查找問題、解決問題。翻譯者的工作，說來也不過如此，根據語言的邏輯從一個語言的理解搬到另一個語言的表達而已，no more or less。但，可辨認的邏輯錯誤，翻譯者有權和各層級的客戶商榷糾正。其它專業人士的工作，其實也是如此。
翻譯不是了不得的專業，只是一種專業而已，但也因此有專業的尊嚴，不必過於驕傲，也不必過於謙卑，因此對其他專業同仁不應過於苛責，除非專業水平真的太低，或工作態度真的太差。在德國，自由業的專業人士，如律師、醫師、會計師等等，法律上規定是不准刊登宣傳廣告的，他們得到的業務都是由專業憑證和口碑而來的。我蠻極端地想，翻譯專業人士也應該有這樣的共識形成。翻譯不需要廣告，語文理解與表達的能力在平常與人往來之中自然會有表現；醫生的好壞，是在診療過程中受到檢定的；律師的好壞，是在打官司、辦事上表現的。不過，醫生看診時會發現一些無藥可醫的病患，律師接案時會發現一些打不贏的官司，翻譯者翻譯時也會發現一些荒謬可議的文本；死人是正常，官司勝負無干訴訟費用，爛文本照譯，而且譯文往往比原文好，錢照收，不害羞。
[Edited at 2006-10-15 06:46]
| | | | ysun
United States
Local time: 07:55
English to Chinese
+ ...
文哲：
你的意见很好啊，也比我讲的详细多了！我想这都是多年工作中总结出来的经验。
我向翻译社、最终用户提问时一般只问非问不可的问题，尽量减少提问。如果事无巨细一律都去问，翻译社和最终用户也会烦。另外，我提问时较注意方式，即使肯定原文错了，也是说：I am wondering if …，给原文作者留下面子，给自己也留个余地。我也曾遇到过极个别不喜欢我提问的人，答复说：Just translate as is. 大概他也懒得去找原作者核实。遇到这种情况，那就只好照样翻，但给他加一个translator's note。一方面出于负责，另一方面，也等于说让他以后出问题时别来烦我。
| | | | Kevin Yang
Local time: 05:55
Member (2003)
English to Chinese
+ ...
| Being defensive and argumentative will not score points. | Oct 15, 2006 |
Hello, My fellow translators
This is a very good topic and I have been reading your posts with great interest. In recent years, I have been doing more proofreading jobs. Most time it was smooth, but occasionally, it gets unpleasant. I think there is a necessity to understand the roles and responsibilities of translators and editors. For the editor, he or she should only revise what it is clearly wrong or missing. If the editor cannot top the current version, there should be no edits... See more Hello, My fellow translators
This is a very good topic and I have been reading your posts with great interest. In recent years, I have been doing more proofreading jobs. Most time it was smooth, but occasionally, it gets unpleasant. I think there is a necessity to understand the roles and responsibilities of translators and editors. For the editor, he or she should only revise what it is clearly wrong or missing. If the editor cannot top the current version, there should be no edits made. For the translator, he or she should understand that there is no flawless translation humanly possible to produce. There is always room for improvement. It works better if the translator can have an open mind and take the suggested translation as an opportunity to observe how the other person would translate the same source text.
When the translator gets very defensive and argumentative, it puts the PM at a very difficult position; especially when he or she cannot read Chinese and understand the difference between the two versions of the same translation. When a translator responded emotionally to any edits, regardless good or bad, it does not really score any points, but left an impression of hard to work with. Here is an example I experienced last week, and hope you can understand my point here.
English Source Text:
Canada, A Country of Immigrants
For the eighth consecutive year, China was the leading source country of immigrants in Canada in 2005, according to Citizenship & Immigration Canada. China also accounted for 16% of total new immigrants to Canada in 2005 and represented 33% of Canada’s immigration from Asia, up 58% over 2004. It is no wonder how the Chinese community has become the largest group of immigrants in Canada, surpassing the one million mark, making it the second largest visible minority in Canada.
Translator's Translation:
加拿大，移民的国家
根据加拿大公民及移民部统计，2005年，中国已经连续第八年成为加拿大的第一大移民来源国。中国还占到2005年加拿大新移民总数的16%，并且代表了加拿大亚洲移民的33%，比2004年上升了58%。无怪乎华人社区已经成为加拿大最大的移民群体，突破了百万大关，成为加拿大第二大少数族裔。
My edits to this translation:
加拿大，一个由移民构成的国家
根据加拿大公民及移民部统计，至2005年为止，中国已经连续八年成为加拿大的第一大移民来源国。中国移民还占2005年加拿大新移民总数的16%，并且代表了加拿大亚洲移民的33%，比2004年上升了58%。如今华人社区已经成为加拿大最大的移民群体，人口突破了百万大关，成为加拿大第二大令人注目的少数族裔。
The PM sent the translation with my edits to this translator. He flipped and changed things back, and responded with the following lengthy notes and rejections: [Similar notes are found throughout the 5-page long translation. Here is only one straight quote for the first paragraph.]
____________________________________
加拿大，一个由移民构成的国家
根据加拿大公民及移民部统计，2005年(rejected: the edited text, when back-translated, is “up until 2005”, which is a little off from the original – “in 2005”)，中国已经连续第(rejected: the original says “eighth year”, if this characted is deleted, it becomes “eight years”. This character 第 should remain in here to keep linguistic logic from the previous phrase.)八年成为加拿大的第一大移民来源国。中国移民还占2005年加拿大新移民总数的16%，并且代表了加拿大亚洲移民的33%，比2004年上升了58%。无怪乎华人社区已经成为加拿大最大的移民群体，突破了百万大关，成为加拿大第二大(rejected: “令人瞩目”, when back-translated, means “prominent”, or “attention drawing”, which is off the original meaning. “Visible minority” is a fix phrase, referring to coloured Canadians. I don’t think people would refer immigrants from Eastern Europe as “Visible Minority”. I intensionally did not put “coloured” to avoid mis-interpretation. The translation “少数族裔” already indicates “ethnic minorities”, which means Canadians of non-white origin. Or if we have to put something, I’d suggest “显著” before “少数族裔”. I personally think it suffices to go without.)少数族裔。
____________________________________
After read his notes above, both the PM at the translation company and I became speechless. I simply added in the omitted translation for "visible", but got lectured with the information I had never heard of. It is creative and refreshing to me that the word "visible" has that many associations. I hope our translators here do not act that way.
Kevin
[修改时间: 2006-10-15 23:24] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Wenjer Leuschel (X)
Taiwan
Local time: 20:55
English to Chinese
+ ...
TongliUSA wrote:
Being defensive and argumentative will not score points.
Kevin,
我也經歷過不少翻譯者有這種反應，但仔細想想，這可能由於他們還不了解這個行業的行為準則，也可能由於他們害怕受到編輯修改而失去工作機會。
其實，大大方方說「編輯在譯文基礎上修潤得很好，使得中文表達更加暢順明白，感謝審校編輯人的指教。」，這可保證下次那位 PM 還會給予項目。反之，使用半生不熟的外文向不懂中文的外國 PM 辯護自己的翻譯，堅持不接受編輯修改，PM 煩了就乾脆找別的翻譯者做。
PM 大體上不會隨便找審校編輯人，既然找了，相當可能是在業界早有名氣的翻譯人，那麼激烈的反應，絕對會讓 PM 不舒服。當然也有遇上新手 PM 的可能，找到第一次嘗試審校編輯的人，但這種情形在國外正規的翻譯公司很少發生，因為在確定審校編輯人員之前，他們早就不知讓那位審校編輯人做過多少稿件，而且 PM 與他的溝通必定早已正常穩定了。
許多新手不懂這些道理，你指出來了，我再加說明一下，好讓新進同仁稍稍節制一點，免得把自己的名聲搞臭了。
- Wenjer
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peiling
Germany
Local time: 14:55
Chinese to English
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| 做back translations 时怎么办呢? | Oct 15, 2006 |
一聲不響地把錯誤糾正的话, PM还会认为翻译本身没问题呢.
Kevin的post挺有意思的.这位翻译者还连back translations 都兼顾了呢.
我倒处处要求PM把edited versions 寄给我,好参考,以及避免下次再犯同样的错误,可惜不是每个PM都会这么做.
Wenjer Leuschel wrote:
此外，對別人的語病如果採取 "garbage in, garbage out" 譯法 ，那是非常不討好的做法，等於是在笑話原文撰稿人或終端客戶或仲介客戶。一般遇到那類的錯誤，翻譯者在譯文裡一聲不響把錯誤糾正即可。
[Edited at 2006-10-15 06:46]
| | | | Wenjer Leuschel (X)
Taiwan
Local time: 20:55
English to Chinese
+ ...
Pei Ling Haussecker wrote: 一聲不響地把錯誤糾正的话, PM还会认为翻译本身没问题呢. Kevin的post挺有意思的.这位翻译者还连back translations 都兼顾了呢. 我倒处处要求PM把edited versions 寄给我,好参考,以及避免下次再犯同样的错误,可惜不是每个PM都会这么做.
輕鬆一點看事情，霈霖。翻譯出錯的情況有千萬種，下次的錯誤不一定是這次的錯誤，修改的不一定是錯誤，而往往是文本編輯上的需要。
一般 PM 沒有那麼多時間樣樣都向翻譯者交代，審稿人處理過的文稿沒有問題，客戶接受了，PM 大多不會多和翻譯者或審稿人討論些什麼。以前我也以為把編輯過的稿件給譯者參考會有幫助，但後來經驗多了，知道那是於事無補的。錯誤就是錯誤，由審稿人改正了就是，已經沒有必要向翻譯者交代。如果仍然有錯，PM 可很有得向客戶交代！
PM 會不斷選用某個審稿人，不會是沒有原因的。翻譯有沒有問題，PM 往往不需要知道，因為他的重點在於解決問題，只要審稿人解決了他交給最終客戶的稿被接受，他就滿意了。
交稿，被接受了，不要回頭看，而是往前看，前頭還要進來的項目才是重要的。要是你的水平真不夠，前頭不可能有項目，那時你才需要自己檢查稿件。別人給你指點？Per Döhler 說："... don't expect anyone to tip you off—you have to look around for yourself." 雖然他說這話的 context 不同，但適用於這種情況。
| | | | peiling
Germany
Local time: 14:55
Chinese to English
+ ...
当然修改的不一定是錯誤,不过都会有值得学习的地方.
Wenjer Leuschel wrote:
輕鬆一點看事情，霈霖。翻譯出錯的情況有千萬種，下次的錯誤不一定是這次的錯誤，修改的不一定是錯誤，而往往是文本編輯上的需要。
一般 PM 沒有那麼多時間樣樣都向翻譯者交代，審稿人處理過的文稿沒有問題，客戶接受了，PM 大多不會多和翻譯者或審稿人討論些什麼。以前我也以為把編輯過的稿件給譯者參考會有幫助，但後來經驗多了，知道那是於事無補的。錯誤就是錯誤，由審稿人改正了就是，已經沒有必要向翻譯者交代。如果仍然有錯，PM 可很有得向客戶交代！
PM 會不斷選用某個審稿人，不會是沒有原因的。翻譯有沒有問題，PM 往往不需要知道，因為他的重點在於解決問題，只要審稿人解決了他交給最終客戶的稿被接受，他就滿意了。
交稿，被接受了，不要回頭看，而是往前看，前頭還要進來的項目才是重要的。要是你的水平真不夠，前頭不可能有項目，那時你才需要自己檢查稿件。別人給你指點？Per Döhler 說："... don't expect anyone to tip you off—you have to look around for yourself." 雖然他說這話的 context 不同，但適用於這種情況。
| | | | ysun
United States
Local time: 07:55
English to Chinese
+ ...
| 译者有点overreacted | Oct 15, 2006 |
总体而言，我认为Kevin是改善了原译文。原来的“连续第八年”说法不妥，这是一种很多人常犯的语病，我认为应为“连续八年”。“中国还占到2005年加拿大新移民总数的16%”也不妥，因为“中国”与后面的“加拿大新移民”不是同一范畴，应为“中国移民还占……”。“华人社区已经……突破了百万大关”也不妥。比如说，美国人口将突破3亿大关，但不能说美国将突破3亿大关。Kevin在“突破了百万大关”之前加的“人口”两字，确有必要。原译文过于拘泥原文。译者也有点overreacted。只有不断取长补短，才能不断提高。
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wherestip
United States
Local time: 07:55
Chinese to English
+ ...
Yueyin Sun wrote:
总体而言，我认为Kevin是改善了原译文。原来的“连续第八年”说法不妥，这是一种很多人常犯的语病，我认为应为“连续八年”。“中国还占到2005年加拿大新移民总数的16%”也不妥，因为“中国”与后面的“加拿大新移民”不是同一范畴，应为“中国移民还占……”。“华人社区已经……突破了百万大关”也不妥。比如说，美国人口将突破3亿大关，但不能说美国将突破3亿大关。Kevin在“突破了百万大关”之前加的“人口”两字，确有必要。原译文过于拘泥原文。译者也有点overreacted。只有不断取长补短，才能不断提高。
I agree with you, Yueyin. The changes Kevin made were all justified, and made the Chinese translation more grammatically correct.
In addition, "visible minority" has nothing to do with darker skin colors. The translator was entirely off base.
[Edited at 2006-10-15 22:39]
| | | | Kevin Yang
Local time: 05:55
Member (2003)
English to Chinese
+ ...
| Visible minorities = persons of non-white in colour | Oct 16, 2006 |
Hello, Yueyin, Steve, Wenjer, and all
Thank you for the link ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visible_minorities )! I did go there and read it. It actually offers a definition for "Visible minorities".
_________________
"Visible minorities are persons who are not of the majority race in a given population. For example, in Canada, visible minorities are defined as "p... See more Hello, Yueyin, Steve, Wenjer, and all
Thank you for the link ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visible_minorities )! I did go there and read it. It actually offers a definition for "Visible minorities".
_________________
"Visible minorities are persons who are not of the majority race in a given population. For example, in Canada, visible minorities are defined as "persons, other than Aboriginals who are non-Caucasian in race or non-white in colour.
The term is primarily used in Canada and is a demographic category used by Statistics Canada in connection with that country's multiculturalism policies. It is also occasionally used in the United Kingdom, but not in other parts of the world."
_________________
I also did a Google search, it turns out to be a term specially used in Canada to refering to the non-white people. Many websites are using the translation "有色族裔". Interesting! I learned something here. As a Chinese, I do not feel too good about being categozied like that.
The word "visible" here is indeed requiring some brain storms just for the purpose of being racially sensitive, well, the connotation is that the white-colored people are not visible because they are in majority whereas the colored people like the Chinese will standout and get noticed because of their skin color, sort of like the yellow roses are on the white wall...
Kevin
[修改时间: 2006-10-16 00:59] ▲ Collapse
| | | | wherestip
United States
Local time: 07:55
Chinese to English
+ ...
| politically incorrect | Oct 16, 2006 |
TongliUSA wrote: Hello, Yueyin, Steve, Wenjer, and all Thank you for the link ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visible_minorities )! I did go there and read it. It actually offers a definition for "Visible minorities". _________________ "Visible minorities are persons who are not of the majority race in a given population. For example, in Canada, visible minorities are defined as "persons, other than Aboriginals who are non-Caucasian in race or non-white in colour. The term is primarily used in Canada and is a demographic category used by Statistics Canada in connection with that country's multiculturalism policies. It is also occasionally used in the United Kingdom, but not in other parts of the world." _________________ I also did a Google search, it turns out to be a term specially used in Canada to refering to the non-white people. Many websites are using the translation "有色族裔". Interesting! I learned something here. As a Chinese, I do not feel too good about being categozied like that. The word "visible" here is indeed requiring some brain storms just for the purpose of being racially sensitive, well, the conotation is that the white-colored people will be not visible because they are in majority whereas the colored people like the Chinese will standout and get noticed because of their skin color. Kevin
Kevin,
That's a usage I've never heard of either. I guess we're in the same boat.
I'm surprised that people in Canada coined a term like that. It's not very politically correct if you ask me.
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