| Pages in topic: [1 2 3 4] > | Does a language stop evolving if it's over-reliant on loanwords? Thread poster: Zolboo Batbold
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Zolboo Batbold 
Italy
Local time: 20:00
Member (2021)
English to Mongolian
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During the past 20-25 years an increasing number of foreign words has entered the Mongolian language. These are loanwords, taken raw, just transliterated into Cyrillic (yes, Mongolian uses the Cyrillic alphabet). The main problem is that the state authority responsible for coining new terms has stopped doing their job properly since the 1990's. As a result, the Mongolian language has been infested with loanwords from English and Russian. It's not that the Mongolian language is lexically poor, on... See more During the past 20-25 years an increasing number of foreign words has entered the Mongolian language. These are loanwords, taken raw, just transliterated into Cyrillic (yes, Mongolian uses the Cyrillic alphabet). The main problem is that the state authority responsible for coining new terms has stopped doing their job properly since the 1990's. As a result, the Mongolian language has been infested with loanwords from English and Russian. It's not that the Mongolian language is lexically poor, on the contrary, it has a rich vocabulary. Since there's no central authority that actively and systematically translates foreign words, experts in each specialized area translates foreign words using their best judgment. As a result, termonological inconsistency is rather common across various disciplines with negative consequences on the teaching of scientific knowledge, education...etc.
What do you think? Does your language have similar problems?
[Edited at 2021-11-20 15:05 GMT]
[Edited at 2021-11-20 15:09 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 20:00
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
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| English and Russian - economic ties, globalization, culture? | Nov 20, 2021 |
No, it does not stop evolving, definitely. I'm quite sure Mongolia still has authentic poets, writers, that will help it keep evolving.
A language will use loanwords in some segments more than others, depending where the concept is from. For instance, if you import a lot of tools from Germany, chances are some of these tools will get a German word, or a modified version of the German word. Big brands can affect it too (brand name turning into an actual word), etc. etc.
... See more No, it does not stop evolving, definitely. I'm quite sure Mongolia still has authentic poets, writers, that will help it keep evolving.
A language will use loanwords in some segments more than others, depending where the concept is from. For instance, if you import a lot of tools from Germany, chances are some of these tools will get a German word, or a modified version of the German word. Big brands can affect it too (brand name turning into an actual word), etc. etc.
It's all about what other country your country most interacts with in terms of culture, business, economy, etc. English words are spreading around due to globalization, Internet, media and pop culture.
[Edited at 2021-11-20 16:27 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Zolboo Batbold wrote:.
What do you think? Does your language have similar problems?
Well, English words are mostly borrowed from Latin, French and German. We think it makes our language richer.
Even American loanwords can sometimes be quite useful.
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:00
Member (2008)
Italian to English
All languages evolve by borrowing words, but when they borrow them and *completely change their meaning* that can be a problem. One recent case is the Italian adoption of "smart working" which Italians think means "working from home"(and which they pronounce as "zmarwarkin").
Conversely (and perversely) the English have decided that something called a "lattay" means "caffé latte".
Nobody can stop anyone else from perpetrating this mangling of someone else's language - ... See more All languages evolve by borrowing words, but when they borrow them and *completely change their meaning* that can be a problem. One recent case is the Italian adoption of "smart working" which Italians think means "working from home"(and which they pronounce as "zmarwarkin").
Conversely (and perversely) the English have decided that something called a "lattay" means "caffé latte".
Nobody can stop anyone else from perpetrating this mangling of someone else's language - although we can maintain whatever personal standards we prefer.
One thing that's literally bothering me literally (in English) at the moment is people literally inserting "literally" in the most inappropriate places; I had to correct someone the other day when they said "the British government is literally killing thousands of people". (!)
That, and answering any question with "absolutely!"
[Edited at 2021-11-21 09:41 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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| Languages even can disappear ... | Nov 20, 2021 |
... completely in a region still populated by (more or less) the same people (inhabitants), but strongly affected by other influences, i.e. immigrants or the efforts of more modern times (be it trade, cultural exchange, religion etc.), as it occurred in the region I grew up (East Frisia). Frisian is a language still existing in other parts of North West Europe, but it died out in East Frisia completely at the end of the 17th century and was replaced by a regional dialect, which more and more a... See more ... completely in a region still populated by (more or less) the same people (inhabitants), but strongly affected by other influences, i.e. immigrants or the efforts of more modern times (be it trade, cultural exchange, religion etc.), as it occurred in the region I grew up (East Frisia). Frisian is a language still existing in other parts of North West Europe, but it died out in East Frisia completely at the end of the 17th century and was replaced by a regional dialect, which more and more adapts to the modern German and its grammar of today. How did it begin? Perhaps with adapting other words which were more suitable for a certain purpose or context, followed by a more effective grammar. I hope the Mongolian people can learn from these experiences. When you start to install bilingual town signs, your earlier culture is going to die out. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Michele Fauble
United States
Local time: 11:00
Member (2006)
Norwegian to English
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| Borrowings from Scandinavian | Nov 20, 2021 |
Ice Scream wrote: Zolboo Batbold wrote:.
What do you think? Does your language have similar problems? Well, English words are mostly borrowed from Latin, French and German. We think it makes our language richer. Even American loanwords can sometimes be quite useful.
Lots of words in English were borrowed from Scandinavian. Everyday vocabulary, even pronouns (they, their, them).
[Edited at 2021-11-20 18:39 GMT]
| | | | Emanuele Vacca
Italy
Local time: 20:00
Member (2020)
English to Italian
| Only partially | Nov 20, 2021 |
I think that a language that is over-reliant on loanwords will probably stop evolving in the field(s) where words are being loaned. Italian for example borrows A LOT of words from English, even when this is not strictly speaking necessary. As a linguist (and not a grammar teacher) I wonder: who am I to say that borrowing a word is not necessary? But then I come across event organizers that advertise their food offering using literally the English word "food" (where we certainly have a word for s... See more I think that a language that is over-reliant on loanwords will probably stop evolving in the field(s) where words are being loaned. Italian for example borrows A LOT of words from English, even when this is not strictly speaking necessary. As a linguist (and not a grammar teacher) I wonder: who am I to say that borrowing a word is not necessary? But then I come across event organizers that advertise their food offering using literally the English word "food" (where we certainly have a word for such a basic concept) and I suddenly change my mind. Returning to your question, in IT for example Italian borrows almost every word from English, so when you hear an IT person speaking you will probably hear that half of the words are in English. In other fields and in everyday language, although Italian borrows a lot of words from English and has been doing it for decades now, what I see is that it still keeps changing all the time. This especially applies to young people. Every generation of young people invents its own set of words, insults, slang, etc., and then probably people keep using them when they grow older. But I think this is way more generalized. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Japanese is an example of language evolving in the wrong way | Nov 21, 2021 |
In my opinion, one thing is the long-term linguistic evolution where words imported from other languages are relatively few in the amount of time X, and therefore there is more time to assimilate them in a more natural way, and another is the voracity with which peoples tend to adopt them in a small fraction of the same amount of time X, or better, systematically look for them for aesthetical reasons.
The Japanese language, for example, is more than ever over-reliant on loanwords, a... See more In my opinion, one thing is the long-term linguistic evolution where words imported from other languages are relatively few in the amount of time X, and therefore there is more time to assimilate them in a more natural way, and another is the voracity with which peoples tend to adopt them in a small fraction of the same amount of time X, or better, systematically look for them for aesthetical reasons.
The Japanese language, for example, is more than ever over-reliant on loanwords, and the sad effects are here to be seen. I fear that it will relatively soon disappear as we know it, because the Japanese people are doing everything they can to destroy it, even more than what the Italians are doing to destroy theirs. It's not only about imported words (almost entirely from English), but also new words or expressions that the Japanese create directly in English for usage in their own society in place of proper and therefore more comprehensible Japanese words.
And, paradoxically, Japanese translators do nothing to contain this phenomenon which is fueled by non-linguists.
[Edited at 2021-11-21 04:45 GMT]
[Edited at 2021-11-21 04:47 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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jyuan_us
United States
Local time: 14:00
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
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| Probably not | Nov 21, 2021 |
At least for my target language.
[Edited at 2021-11-21 08:24 GMT]
| | | | | Cross-breeding | Nov 21, 2021 |
The assimilation of borrowed words is one of the ways in which a language evolves. It's like cross-breeding among different strains in the natural world.
As Chris has pointed out, English has successfully assimilated countless words borrowed from many foreign languages. A large part of medical English, to take one example, consists of words simply transliterated from Greek. But apart from the usual European culprits we can also add languages like Arabic, Hindi and Eskimo.
... See more The assimilation of borrowed words is one of the ways in which a language evolves. It's like cross-breeding among different strains in the natural world.
As Chris has pointed out, English has successfully assimilated countless words borrowed from many foreign languages. A large part of medical English, to take one example, consists of words simply transliterated from Greek. But apart from the usual European culprits we can also add languages like Arabic, Hindi and Eskimo.
Isn't this the essence of language evolution, rather than a force impeding it? ▲ Collapse
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:00
Member (2008)
Italian to English
| The return of 16th. century English | Nov 21, 2021 |
The early English settlers who went to America spoke the form of English that was common in the 16th-17th centuries. This then became mixed with the languages of settlers from other parts of Europe, gradually evolving into what we now call American English.
Over the ensuing 300 years years British English and American English then went their own separate ways.
But now, as a result of the dominance of American English in movies, there is a tendency, among a certain ki... See more The early English settlers who went to America spoke the form of English that was common in the 16th-17th centuries. This then became mixed with the languages of settlers from other parts of Europe, gradually evolving into what we now call American English.
Over the ensuing 300 years years British English and American English then went their own separate ways.
But now, as a result of the dominance of American English in movies, there is a tendency, among a certain kind of person in 21st century Britain - the kind of person who watches a lot of American movies - to adopt expressions that come directly from the 16th century.
One notable example is the return to British English of the participle "gotten", which hasn't been used for centuries but remains common in American English.
I never say "gotten" myself, but I do notice that it is now becoming very common. Or to put it another way, it has gotten very common.
I find this use of "gotten" quaint and intriguing.
I'm willing to bet that people who say "gotten" don't even know they are using an expression that comes from 16th century English!
[Edited at 2021-11-21 09:29 GMT]
Note added later
I've also noticed that, in written English, a lot of people are turning every statement into a question? Even when it isn't a question? By finishing every sentence with a question mark? The written equivalent of up talking?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPZMy_JWsOU
[Edited at 2021-11-21 09:34 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 20:00
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
| Languages close to borders. | Nov 21, 2021 |
A typical example may be regions around borders of any country where words of the two countries mix up a lot. Even though the languages of bordering countries are usually similar, but not completely and not always. Obviously, this is largely due to geographic proximity. It may be noticed on the level of vocabulary, accent and syntax. I was in regions close to borders where it's quite common to start a sentence in one language about half way through and finish it up in another.
jyuan_us wrote:
At least for my target language.
[Edited at 2021-11-21 08:24 GMT]
Is it common in Chinese to transliterate an English word? Because when you're borrowing an English word, it's also a new script/alphabet right? That may make things more difficult to borrow.
[Edited at 2021-11-21 11:36 GMT]
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| Language borrowing | Nov 21, 2021 |
Language borrowing is a historical process. Overall, borrowed words help to enrich the language but it should be said that words can be borrowed both directly and indirectly. In direct borrowing a donor word is received as it is by the host language, whereas indirect borrowing involves alterations of the donor word. Smaller languages tend to borrow many words from majority languages. This is because of the role that "major" languages have in technology, media, politics and public life in general... See more Language borrowing is a historical process. Overall, borrowed words help to enrich the language but it should be said that words can be borrowed both directly and indirectly. In direct borrowing a donor word is received as it is by the host language, whereas indirect borrowing involves alterations of the donor word. Smaller languages tend to borrow many words from majority languages. This is because of the role that "major" languages have in technology, media, politics and public life in general. France is famous for the fierce protection of their language through L’Académie francaise, which attends to all matters concerning the French language. But the French are not alone in the war against “linguistic impurities”. On the other extreme, some countries are much more liberal (Italy comes to my mind). I would say that my country stands in the middle position… ▲ Collapse
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:00
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Matthias Brombach wrote:
When you start to install bilingual town signs, your earlier culture is going to die out.
Or not. Your earlier culture might be the stronger one.
| | | | | Ireland: Perhaps a good example ... | Nov 21, 2021 |
Tom in London wrote:
Or not. Your earlier culture might be the stronger one.
... and with all due respect to the Irish nation and its rich culture and history: How deep is Gaelic still anchored in the Irish people and still spoken as an everyday's true native language by the people, i.e. in the families, among friends, at work, on the street, in school, on University, etc., apart from the efforts of the official Irish cultural institutions to keep Gaelic alive? Hasn't it been replaced already by English in most of the domains you can imagine? What about Gaelic in Wales and Scotland? Is it still spoken naturally and in a modern context, or only by elder people who still master it as their true native language, and not just because they keep it alive because they want to?
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