| Pages in topic: < [1 2] | Learning one's fourth, fifth, sixth... language Thread poster: Anton Konashenok
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Dan Lucas 
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:01
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
| We all have finite resources | Mar 31, 2023 |
Anton Konashenok wrote:
Hmm... I know 19 languages: 2 native, 7 professional and 10 for my personal needs. According to your logic, I must be somewhere in the bottom 1% of the world population in terms of my speaking and writing aptitude. If really so, pray tell, what am I doing here on ProZ.com?
I take your point and respect your achievements, but there are only 24 hours in the day. Either you spread your attention more thinly over many languages, or you neglect some at the expense of others.
Crude thought experiment. Let's assume there are two people who have a similar level of raw translation ability, as far as any third party can tell. One spends 10 hours a week translating Japanese, 10 hours translating French, and 20 hours translating German (all into English). The other spends 40 hours a week translating Japanese to English.
The latter translator is going to accumulate four times the experience of the other in translating Japanese for any given period of time.
Let's say there is a client who is looking to get a demanding document translated from Japanese into English. Which translator will the client choose? I reckon nine out of ten clients will choose the translator that spends all their time on Japanese. Practice makes perfect may be a cliché, but it's because such sayings have a kernel of truth that they became clichés in the first place.
Maybe such considerations would not be an issue for less demanding texts, but we don't want to be doing those, do we? A high level of difficulty suggests a high of level of, for want of a better term, job security.
I'm not saying that one cannot make a good living from working in many pairs (especially those involving closely related languages), but there are no free lunches. It comes down to a judgement as to whether the increase in work generated by the additional language(s) compensates for the decrease in work caused by clients preferring others because they value single-language specialists. That will vary by person, I suppose.
Regards,
Dan
| | | | | Missundaztood | Mar 31, 2023 |
Ice Scream wrote:
IMO the more languages you learn, the less well you will speak the others and write your own.
I wasn't actually thinking about working languages. Because translation is so passive, the dilutive effect will be minimal in most subject areas.
(Although it would drive me mad trying to keep up with, say, changes in taxes and benefits and names of ministries in dozens of countries. I only translate one* language but I still have to cope with four countries.)
| | | | Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 21:01
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
Lieven Malaise wrote: Anton Konashenok wrote:
If really so, pray tell, what am I doing here on ProZ.com? I think it's an excellent question what somebody who is able to learn to master 19 languages is doing in an apocalyptic hell hole as Proz. 🙂 [Edited at 2023-03-31 06:40 GMT]
Replying to “give me your best rate for MTPE” jobs in 19 languages (sending 19 quotes).
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[quote]Anton Konashenok wrote:
Hmm... I know 19 languages
It is said that Leonardo da Vinci spoke 26 languages. I would say, keep going, and you'll beat him.
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| 19, 26 and other Fibonacci numbers... | Apr 1, 2023 |
"It is said that Leonardo da Vinci spoke 26 languages."
As if there's any way to verify that he really did. It is always 'said' this or that. I've read about some monk who 'knew' 40 or 50 or something. He was locked up in a monastery all his life, and somehow he did. Well, it's a question of faith and believing in miracles.
| | | | Daniel Frisano
Italy
Local time: 21:01
Member (2008)
English to Italian
+ ...
Ice Scream wrote:
IMO the more languages you learn, the less well you will speak the others and write your own.
It's all about specialisation, see.
Well, unless you are one of those rare individuals who somehow seem to be able to improve their skills over a lifetime.
In that case, go ahead, learn as many new languages (and open yourself to as many new cultures) as you wish, the benefits will be life-changing. (Again, tried and tested)
But for all the innumerable others, yeah, you're right, it's really not worth the hassle.
| | | | P.L.F. Persio
Netherlands
Local time: 21:01
Member (2010)
English to Italian
+ ...
Anton, do not listen to the naysayers. As Dante puts is, Non ragioniam di lor, ma guarda e passa. (Let us not speak of them; but look, and pass on. / Они не стоят слов: взгляни - и мимо!)
Dan has a point though but, if you want to add Japanese and Hebrew to your impressive collection of languages, please, go ahead and have fun. It's absolutely nobody's business what you want to do with them. We'll be dead a long time, and I can think of much w... See more Anton, do not listen to the naysayers. As Dante puts is, Non ragioniam di lor, ma guarda e passa. (Let us not speak of them; but look, and pass on. / Они не стоят слов: взгляни - и мимо!)
Dan has a point though but, if you want to add Japanese and Hebrew to your impressive collection of languages, please, go ahead and have fun. It's absolutely nobody's business what you want to do with them. We'll be dead a long time, and I can think of much worse, more ludicrous and dubious endeavours than learning new languages, while we are still here.
And I'm with Evgeny, in that I also call bullshit on the Leonardo claim. Apparently, he taught himself Latin, maybe he learnt a little Greek, and – if we really want to push the boat out – we could speculate on him learning Arabic and Aramaic which – along with his native Italian, and the French he presumably spoke while in France – makes 6 languages, still a remarkable feat. But how can we possibly know?
Back on topic. Two years ago, I finally signed up for an intensive course of Japanese at the UvA, the University of Amsterdam. It is a traditional language course, albeit online and via Zoom, with a Japanese-native teacher, and a limited number of attendees. We used a texbook, an exercise book, our teacher gave us a lot of additional reference materials, and I had a whale of a time: the teacher was great, we did a lot of practice during our classes, and it was so fun! But hard, I have to say, and challenging, because you need to do your homework, you need to practice day in day out, and put time, and energy in it, which you don't always have. But you already know that.
When I started out, the pandemic was still raging and my workload had been plummeting. Last summer though, after completing 4 basic levels, I had to call it quits, because work started to go up again, I had increasingly fewer hours to dedicate to anything else, and something got to give. But I know I'm going back to my beloved Japanese, sooner or later.
The thing is, I need a teacher to learn, but you may be able and tenacious enough to learn by yourself. This is the book we used: https://genki3.japantimes.co.jp/en/, whereas this is a useful app for learning how to write kanji: https://www.wanikani.com (I haven't downloaded it yet, but it was suggested by our teacher.)
There's also this funny little song to help you learn the -te form: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P029zwYS4Cs Mind you, this is the 10-hour long version, there's also a much shorter one.
Good luck Anton, or – as we wannabe yamatologists say – ganbatte – がんばって (you can see it here, a verb with -te form) with your new linguistic adventures!
[Edited at 2023-04-02 13:15 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Michael Newton
United States
Local time: 15:01
Japanese to English
+ ...
| multiple languages | Apr 3, 2023 |
By age 21, after French, Russian and Chinese, I was well on my way to learning my fourth language, Japanese. I started French and Russian in high school, continued to Russian and Chinese as an undergrad and then Chinese and Japanese in grad school. It helps to have money, opportunities (foreign travel and multilingual friends). My campus, Georgetown University, was a multilingual university and you could switch from English, to Spanish, Russian and French. My mother, the daughter of American mis... See more By age 21, after French, Russian and Chinese, I was well on my way to learning my fourth language, Japanese. I started French and Russian in high school, continued to Russian and Chinese as an undergrad and then Chinese and Japanese in grad school. It helps to have money, opportunities (foreign travel and multilingual friends). My campus, Georgetown University, was a multilingual university and you could switch from English, to Spanish, Russian and French. My mother, the daughter of American missionaries to China, was born in China and until age 6 spoke only Chinese but had to learn English when her family returned to the US. This background helped me to be open to foreign cultures languages and I blossomed in the learning of foreign languages. Speaking many languages in Europe is not such a big deal compared to the US where most people are monolingual. Nowadays, I keep up my languages by speaking Japanese and French with my wife and, after a hard day's work, by tuning into the streaming services, Netflix, Amazon Prime and others like Vix and MHz. I can easily switch the audio of a Turkish or Indian drama to Japanese and sometimes watch a Telegu-language drama with Russian subtitles. Although I lived in Mexico and Spanish is not one of my languages, I am a fan of the many Spanish-language offerings (Quien mato a Sara? Bajo sospecha; Noticias de un sequestro; and so forth. As for learning a foreign language, the best advice I could give is that given to people who ask: "How to you get to Carnegie Hall"? Practice, practice, practice. ▲ Collapse
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Michael Newton
United States
Local time: 15:01
Japanese to English
+ ...
| Multiple languages | Apr 3, 2023 |
The quote from Dante in Italian and Russian really made my day. One of the great tragedies of cultural life is that Russia poetess Anna AKhmatova did not know ancient Greek. Had she know ancient Greek, her Russian Odyssey would have been an Odyssey of the ages. Not because Akhmatova was a woman, but because Akhmatova was Akhmatova. We are eternally impoverished.
I bow down to her with a version of one of her poems which expressed her anguish.
Muzh f mogilye, syn f tyur... See more The quote from Dante in Italian and Russian really made my day. One of the great tragedies of cultural life is that Russia poetess Anna AKhmatova did not know ancient Greek. Had she know ancient Greek, her Russian Odyssey would have been an Odyssey of the ages. Not because Akhmatova was a woman, but because Akhmatova was Akhmatova. We are eternally impoverished.
I bow down to her with a version of one of her poems which expressed her anguish.
Muzh f mogilye, syn f tyurmye, Bozhe, pomilui obo mnye!
My son is in prison, my husband's in the ground. Grant me, O Lord, thy mercy profound! ▲ Collapse
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It's "Помолитесь обо мне", not "Боже, помилуй обо мне", which is gramatically incorrect and also breaks the rhythm (I'm not sure how it's called in English, i.e. sequence of stressed syllables in a line). Actually, the original has quite a different meaning compared to your translation of the misquote - not asking God for mercy but rather asking others pray for her.
I'm not a poetry fan, but I can't make any sense of the passage about Odyssey and her not k... See more It's "Помолитесь обо мне", not "Боже, помилуй обо мне", which is gramatically incorrect and also breaks the rhythm (I'm not sure how it's called in English, i.e. sequence of stressed syllables in a line). Actually, the original has quite a different meaning compared to your translation of the misquote - not asking God for mercy but rather asking others pray for her.
I'm not a poetry fan, but I can't make any sense of the passage about Odyssey and her not knowing Greek... Do you mean that Zhuovsky did a bad job translating Odyssey into Russian and she would have done better? ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Love of languages vs professional applications | Apr 3, 2023 |
After all the years I spent translating in my working language pair only, I still can't say I've mastered my subject areas and can translate anything in them with one hand tied behind my back. The last man who knew everything was the Jesuit scholar Athanasius Kircher, and he lived in the 17th century. Since then, every disciplinary domain has become way too big for one person to handle, so, translation-wise, I'd rather focus on mastering individual subject areas than work to add new language pai... See more After all the years I spent translating in my working language pair only, I still can't say I've mastered my subject areas and can translate anything in them with one hand tied behind my back. The last man who knew everything was the Jesuit scholar Athanasius Kircher, and he lived in the 17th century. Since then, every disciplinary domain has become way too big for one person to handle, so, translation-wise, I'd rather focus on mastering individual subject areas than work to add new language pairs to my portfolio. That's just me: I don't get to spend time in multilingual environments, and while being able to read in my non-working languages, I can hardly maintain a conversation in them. I may self-study a language if I want to read something, but I definitely won't pay someone for teaching me languages. Woe me, I'm not a language genius. People in the military did think of me as a polyglot, so I had to keep explaining that I'm not. If my mental capacity were adequate for accommodating a bunch of languages, however, I'd reserve some or most of it for no-nonsense mathematics
[Edited at 2023-04-03 13:33 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | P.L.F. Persio
Netherlands
Local time: 21:01
Member (2010)
English to Italian
+ ...
| Jumping on an off-topic horse, and runnig away with it | Apr 3, 2023 |
Michael Newton wrote:
The quote from Dante in Italian and Russian really made my day. One of the great tragedies of cultural life is that Russia poetess Anna AKhmatova did not know ancient Greek. Had she know ancient Greek, her Russian Odyssey would have been an Odyssey of the ages. Not because Akhmatova was a woman, but because Akhmatova was Akhmatova. We are eternally impoverished.
I bow down to her with a version of one of her poems which expressed her anguish.
Muzh f mogilye, syn f tyurmye, Bozhe, pomilui obo mnye!
My son is in prison, my husband's in the ground. Grant me, O Lord, thy mercy profound!
Akhmatova was this impossibly glamorous, brilliant poetess, who had to endure terrible losses, like many other women and men, in the 1930s Soviet Union. This is what she wrote in an excerpt from “Requiem”, in 1957:
I spent seventeen months waiting in line outside the prison in Leningrad. One day somebody in the crowd recognized me. Standing behind me was a woman, with lips blue from the cold, who had, of course, never heard me called by name before. Now she started out of the torpor common to us all and asked me in a whisper (everyone whispered there):
“Can you describe this?”
And I said: “I can.”
Then something like a smile passed fleetingly over what had once been her face.”
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P.L.F. Persio
Netherlands
Local time: 21:01
Member (2010)
English to Italian
+ ...
| | Very common in these parts. | Apr 6, 2023 |
Leaving New York, on the way to the Netherlands, I overheard a Ghanaian taxi-driver chatting on his cell phone in a tonal language that I didn’t recognize. “It’s Hausa,” he told me. “I speak it with my father, whose family comes from Nigeria. But I speak Twi with my mom, Ga with my friends, some Ewe, and English is our lingua franca. If people in Chelsea spoke one thing and people in SoHo another, New Yorkers would be multilingual, too.”
Exactly. It is extremely common for adult Ghanaians to speak two, three, four or more local languages and to switch back and forth between them without missing a beat. Reading and writing is a whole 'nuther beast, but just knowing/learning a couple of languages is not the soul-destroying life-wasting endeavor people are trying to make it out to be.
Though I wonder how long this will last since many children these days grow up speaking only English...
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