| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | Looking for advice to detect scammers/fake translators Thread poster: WWL
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| Due diligence | Dec 15, 2021 |
WWL wrote:
Now, we modified our contract with the potential translators (including NDAs). When we post a job, we are asking for a videconference with the candidate. We are also asking for references. If you folks have any other recommendatiosn, please let me know
The problem with references is that we are not supposed to provide any information related to our clients, except what you can find in WWAs and the Blue Board, so I always decline all requests for further references, not least as they could be abused. I also don't want my clients inconvenienced by callers from other outsourcers.
As for a video conference, it's something I would find suspect, as it is not widely used. Video conferencing software doesn't reveal anything about the other participants' location anyway. But let's say you call the thief and he is polite. Then they steal anyway. How does that video call help you then? 'I saw him on video,' you'll tell the police when filing a report, 'go and catch them,' as if having knowledge about their visual features automatically gave you a GPS location.
Female translators may not feel at ease with a video conference with an unknown person either. A friend told me how a PM had requested a video call only to show up bare-chested on the call, full of hair, as it was. She hung up immediately and complained to the outsourcer, of course. Soon after, he had been terminated.
Kudoz: I don't use it much. There isn't much activity in one of my combinations, and in the other, Kudoz is plagued by aggressive, intimidating and otherwise unpleasant behaviour by some members and Proz is doing nothing about it, so I usually stay away from that combination.
Not all members are active in forums.
I never participate in events organised by ProZ.com (in-person or virtual).
'And when two translators are equal, choose the one with an email address on his/her own domain,' it was suggested. Unfortunately, that doesn't say anything about the quality and honesty. But it’s true that having one’s own domain and website can add credibility, which is obviously one of the reasons I have them.
It's not obvious, just as it isn't always obvious for a translator to vet a potential client. Sometimes we only have our gut feeling to go on, the compounded impression of the person's behaviour, including little things such as requesting unusual procedures like a video conference or being overly effusive or flattering, as if to lure the translator into a trap.
| | | | Baran Keki 
Türkiye
Local time: 14:35
Member
English to Turkish
| What's wrong with providing references? | Dec 16, 2021 |
Thomas T. Frost wrote:
The problem with references is that we are not supposed to provide any information related to our clients, except what you can find in WWAs and the Blue Board, so I always decline all requests for further references, not least as they could be abused. I also don't want my clients inconvenienced by callers from other outsourcers.
If a PM from a translation agency has agreed for you to provide their name and contact details for reference purposes, what is wrong with that? People already see the names of your clients on your Proz profile and elsewhere.
| | | | Mr. Satan (X)
English to Indonesian
Forgive me for barging in, but I have to comment on your post as it relates with my own experience.
I had some clients whom their names I couldn't reveal. I know it's bad for my long term career as I could only provide a less impressive portfolio than it actually is. But secrecy is one of my main selling points in the fierce of market competition, and the clients asked to not reveal those information in the contracts they provided. As long as they pay me in the end, I couldn't care ... See more Forgive me for barging in, but I have to comment on your post as it relates with my own experience.
I had some clients whom their names I couldn't reveal. I know it's bad for my long term career as I could only provide a less impressive portfolio than it actually is. But secrecy is one of my main selling points in the fierce of market competition, and the clients asked to not reveal those information in the contracts they provided. As long as they pay me in the end, I couldn't care less.
Consequently, I'm not allowed to provide references mentioning personal details about PMs and/or CPs from those clients. While I'm probably still allowed to mention the clients' names as companies, I chose to err on the safe side. I think I've made a clear enough statement in here that I am rather paranoid, and I'm taking advantage of this trait.
But even w/o such restrictions, I don't think it's appropriate to just give away someone else's contact details. Yes, you could ask their permissions. But they probably still wouldn't appreciate that you are involving them in your personal job seeking quests.
But to add a contribution to OP's thread...
@OP
Generally, never trust a freelance translator who:
- claims to speak 10 languages or something crazy,
- claims to be an expert/knowledgeable in all fields,
- proposes lower rates than what you offered,
- proposes faster turnover time than what you asked.
Of course, even if the translator is doing none of the above, there's still no guarantee that the translator is legit. As Thomas T. Frost has said, it's not always obvious to spot a scammer. Both for agencies/clients and for us freelance translators. But if it sounds too good to be true, it usually does.
[Edited at 2021-12-16 10:21 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Baran Keki wrote: Thomas T. Frost wrote:
The problem with references is that we are not supposed to provide any information related to our clients, except what you can find in WWAs and the Blue Board, so I always decline all requests for further references, not least as they could be abused. I also don't want my clients inconvenienced by callers from other outsourcers. If a PM from a translation agency has agreed for you to provide their name and contact details for reference purposes, what is wrong with that?
No outsourcer I work for has agreed to that and I would never ask, as it is not my policy to inconvenience them with that. I may use the Proz functionality to request WWA and if they do provide it, it's their choice and it can be seen in my profile. If another outsourcer then chooses to contact them, it is out of my hands.
Baran Keki wrote:
People already see the names of your clients on your Proz profile and elsewhere.
People see the names of those who have chosen to leave feedback. But where is 'elsewhere'?
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Baran Keki
Türkiye
Local time: 14:35
Member
English to Turkish
Thomas T. Frost wrote:
No outsourcer I work for has agreed to that and I would never ask, as it is not my policy to inconvenience them with that. I may use the Proz functionality to request WWA and if they do provide it, it's their choice and it can be seen in my profile. If another outsourcer then chooses to contact them, it is out of my hands.
This seems like your opinion. In your earlier post you said "we are not supposed to provide any information related to our clients" as if it's some sort of rule or etiquette. I'm, of course, well aware of the inconvenience this might cause to the person in question, and that's why I always ask if they feel comfortable about this. Some of them don't mind and are happy to do it.
Thomas T. Frost wrote:
But where is 'elsewhere'?
Elsewhere could be your resume, your LinkedIn profile, Translatorscafe profile or any other social media page where your professional contacts, acquaintances could be displayed.
[Edited at 2021-12-16 10:08 GMT]
| | | | jyuan_us
United States
Local time: 07:35
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
Baran Keki wrote: Thomas T. Frost wrote:
The problem with references is that we are not supposed to provide any information related to our clients, except what you can find in WWAs and the Blue Board, so I always decline all requests for further references, not least as they could be abused. I also don't want my clients inconvenienced by callers from other outsourcers. If a PM from a translation agency has agreed for you to provide their name and contact details for reference purposes, what is wrong with that? People already see the names of your clients on your Proz profile and elsewhere.
In my case, emails from any potential client that asks for references will go to the trash folder. This is because I don't want to request my contacts to be my references in their busy schedules. I consider such a request to be quite annoying.
There have been fewer and fewer requests for references in the past couple of years, and I don't encourage such a practice to have a comeback.
[Edited at 2021-12-16 11:45 GMT]
| | | | jyuan_us
United States
Local time: 07:35
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
| I don't think this is a good idea | Dec 16, 2021 |
WWL wrote:
Now, we modified our contract with the potential translators (including NDAs). When we post a job, we are asking for a videconference with the candidate. We are also asking for references. If you folks have any other recommendatiosn, please let me know
Unless desperately in need, no translator would be happy to do a video conference.
At least this is not for me.
| | | | Baran Keki
Türkiye
Local time: 14:35
Member
English to Turkish
| It looks like Proz has a policy against references as well | Dec 16, 2021 |
For some reason my reply to Thomas Frost is still being vetted since this morning...
If you don't want to trouble your clients with such requests, that's fine. But it's a perfectly normal practice to ask for a reference letter (or a letter of introduction) from one's employer when one's seeking a new position elsewhere. If a person has agreed to provide such help and is okay with the hassle, I can't see why it's regarded as an absolute "no-no" or some sort of gross breach of a rule or eti... See more For some reason my reply to Thomas Frost is still being vetted since this morning...
If you don't want to trouble your clients with such requests, that's fine. But it's a perfectly normal practice to ask for a reference letter (or a letter of introduction) from one's employer when one's seeking a new position elsewhere. If a person has agreed to provide such help and is okay with the hassle, I can't see why it's regarded as an absolute "no-no" or some sort of gross breach of a rule or etiquette.
I still believe that having reliable people vouch for your skills and competence is much more effective than taking tests or any other form of vetting. ▲ Collapse
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Baran Keki wrote:
But it's a perfectly normal practice to ask for a reference letter (or a letter of introduction) from one's employer when one's seeking a new position elsewhere. If a person has agreed to provide such help and is okay with the hassle, I can't see why it's regarded as an absolute "no-no" or some sort of gross breach of a rule or etiquette.
I still believe that having reliable people vouch for your skills and competence is much more effective than taking tests or any other form of vetting.
Yes, but what does that have to do with us? We are not employees. Well, I don't know about you, but most of us aren't. As far as I'm aware, it is not normal practice to ask a client to help one of their competitors, wasting their time in the process, possibly breaching the GDPR or other privacy laws, by providing references for a supplier they have used.
If you need an accountant, solicitor, plumber, electrician, dentist, doctor or other professional, do you ask them for references so you can call their clients?
| | | | Baran Keki
Türkiye
Local time: 14:35
Member
English to Turkish
Thomas T. Frost wrote:
As far as I'm aware, it is not normal practice to ask a client to help one of their competitors, wasting their time in the process, possibly breaching the GDPR or other privacy laws, by providing references for a supplier they have used.
How does a PM saying "this person has completed this amount of translations for us and we're satisfied with his work" breach any privacy laws or help a competitor in any way?
How does using a 'supplier' 'help' another competitor or cause them to waste their time? Are you supposed to work for one translation agency exclusively? Aren't you a supplier to another agency?
I have no idea what you're talking about.
| | | | Adieu
Ukrainian to English
+ ...
| References = scam in our business | Dec 16, 2021 |
Especially if requested by an agency or other outsourcer.
They can and will simply note your rates and the contacts you provide and email them an offer to undercut you.
All our talk of privacy and not bothering our dear clients boils down to "NOPE, I just don't wanna get robbed"
Baran Keki wrote:
For some reason my reply to Thomas Frost is still being vetted since this morning...
If you don't want to trouble your clients with such requests, that's fine. But it's a perfectly normal practice to ask for a reference letter (or a letter of introduction) from one's employer when one's seeking a new position elsewhere. If a person has agreed to provide such help and is okay with the hassle, I can't see why it's regarded as an absolute "no-no" or some sort of gross breach of a rule or etiquette.
I still believe that having reliable people vouch for your skills and competence is much more effective than taking tests or any other form of vetting.
[Edited at 2021-12-16 13:02 GMT]
| | | | expressisverbis
Portugal
Local time: 12:35
Member (2015)
English to Portuguese
+ ...
| "What's wrong with providing references?" | Dec 16, 2021 |
Baran Keki wrote:
If a PM from a translation agency has agreed for you to provide their name and contact details for reference purposes, what is wrong with that? People already see the names of your clients on your Proz profile and elsewhere.
Baran, I can understand your point, but honestly, I think translation agencies should stop requesting references, diplomas, CVs, tests, filling out long and annoying forms, etc.
This doesn't make any sense at all. I don't ask for references, diplomas, or any proof of skills from doctors, workers from civil construction, architects, plumbers, or any other professional.
If translation agencies want to know more about me and/or my work, they can come here, search my name in the Universities I have studied, and/or check my website.
Direct clients, on the contrary, don't ask us for any references or proof of any kind.
People have not yet realised that we, translators, are professionals like any others and, as such, we should be treated with the same "respect" and under the same circumstances.
We should have more laws on our side, which support us, for example, in the certification of translations (Portugal is still one of the few countries, if not the only one, whose certifications should only be carried out by lawyers, solicitors, notaries, embassies or consulates, which is completely ridiculous); we should be paid immediately after delivery of our projects and our invoice, we should be better protected against fraudulent schemes, although much has been done so far...
Here, on Proz.com, as for requesting feedback from translation agencies I only do it if and when they post theirs about any translation services I have provided to them before, but I don't take the initiative to ask for it.
[Edited at 2021-12-16 13:24 GMT]
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Baran Keki
Türkiye
Local time: 14:35
Member
English to Turkish
| I think I'm being misunderstood here | Dec 16, 2021 |
Novian Cahyadi wrote:
I had some clients whom their names I couldn't reveal. I know it's bad for my long term career as I could only provide a less impressive portfolio than it actually is. But secrecy is one of my main selling points in the fierce of market competition, and the clients asked to not reveal those information in the contracts they provided. As long as they pay me in the end, I couldn't care less.
Consequently, I'm not allowed to provide references mentioning personal details about PMs and/or CPs from those clients. While I'm probably still allowed to mention the clients' names as companies, I chose to err on the safe side. I think I've made a clear enough statement in here that I am rather paranoid, and I'm taking advantage of this trait.
It's not like I'm listing the names of my clients like a portfolio, or providing the personal details of a PM wherever I can to subject them to constant harassment.
There are a few PMs who have agreed to let me use their names as references (in fact one of them suggested this to me out of the blue when I didn't even have a notion of what a reference was) and said that it was okay for them to respond to such queries on my behalf. So it was consensual, you see? It's not like I was begging or threatening them to do that or doing it without their knowledge.
If you don't like the idea of putting people to such inconvenience, don't do it by all means, but don't try to make your opinions sound like established professional rules by saying "we are not supposed to give any information etc. etc."
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Baran Keki wrote:
In your earlier post you said "we are not supposed to provide any information related to our clients" as if it's some sort of rule or etiquette.
Apart from what is stated in some NDAs, I consider publishing information about one's clients unethical, except if they have agreed in writing (but I don't want to bother them with that), and except if it's in the strict context of credit ratings. Of course, you may have a different opinion.
But the point is that many of us don't feel comfortable requesting references, so it's not a particularly useful way of vetting a supplier.
Baran Keki wrote: Thomas T. Frost wrote:
But where is 'elsewhere'? Elsewhere could be your resume, your LinkedIn profile, Translatorscafe profile or any other social media page where your professional contacts, acquaintances could be displayed.
I see. Thanks. I don't go around publishing my professional or even private contacts like an open book and I don't use LinkedIn or other social media, as I can't control how all that information is used or abused. All that information simply isn't anyone else's business.
Baran Keki wrote:
How does a PM saying "this person has completed this amount of translations for us and we're satisfied with his work" breach any privacy laws or help a competitor in any way?
GDPR, Art. 4 (1):
"‘personal data’ means any information relating to an identified or identifiable natural person"
Art. 5:
"1. Personal data shall be:
(b) collected for specified, explicit and legitimate purposes and not further processed in a manner that is incompatible with those purposes"
Art. 6:
"1. Processing shall be lawful only if and to the extent that at least one of the following applies:
(a) the data subject has given consent to the processing of his or her personal data for one or more specific purposes;
(b) processing is necessary for the performance of a contract to which the data subject is party or in order to take steps at the request of the data subject prior to entering into a contract;
(c) processing is necessary for compliance with a legal obligation to which the controller is subject;
(d) processing is necessary in order to protect the vital interests of the data subject or of another natural person;
(e) processing is necessary for the performance of a task carried out in the public interest or in the exercise of official authority vested in the controller;
(f) processing is necessary for the purposes of the legitimate interests pursued by the controller or by a third party, except where such interests are overridden by the interests or fundamental rights and freedoms of the data subject which require protection of personal data, in particular where the data subject is a child."
| | | | Baran Keki
Türkiye
Local time: 14:35
Member
English to Turkish
| I completely agree with you | Dec 16, 2021 |
expressisverbis wrote:
Baran, I can understand your point, but honestly, I think translation agencies should stop requesting references, diplomas, CVs, tests, filling out long and annoying forms, etc.
This doesn't make any sense at all. I don't ask for references, diplomas, or any proof of skills from doctors, workers from civil construction, architects, plumbers, or any other professional.
If translation agencies want to know more about me and/or my work, they can come here, search my name in the Universities I have studied, and/or check my website.
Direct clients, on the contrary, don't ask us for any references or proof of any kind.
People have not yet realised that we, translators, are professionals like any others and, as such, we should be treated with the same "respect" and under the same circumstances.
We should have more laws on our side, which support us, for example, in the certification of translations (Portugal is still one of the few countries, if not the only one, whose certifications should only be carried out by lawyers, solicitors, notaries, embassies or consulates, which is completely ridiculous); we should be paid immediately after delivery of our projects and our invoice, we should be better protected against fraudulent schemes, although much has been done so far...
As for requesting feedback from translation agencies I only do it if and when they post theirs about any translation services I have provided to them before, but I don't take the initiative to ask for it.
I suggested this to the OP as a vetting method. Earlier this year a Palestinian scammer stole my old CV and sent it to my old employer (where I worked as an in-house translator for 10 years and I left on less than favorable terms) by changing my name and contact details. He must have done this to countless other agencies throughout the world. My email name was listed on a translation scammers website (forgot its name) as if I was a scammer.
Again earlier this year, I received a job notification from a European translation agency and I was quick to react to it, so I got the translation job. After finishing and sending the translation I was contacted by an LSP who asked my availability for a proofreading job. You'd never have guessed what the translation job was! It was my own translation! He (the LSP) apparently got himself registered with that agency as an English to Turkish translator with a fake CV (again this guy was an Arab, it's just a weird coincidence) and got the proofreading job when he wasn't quick enough to get the translation job.
So, the translation agencies allowing everybody who clicked on their "Join Us" button are likely to run into such problems. I just suggested a method whereby a translation agency can at least verify if the person applying to them is the real deal, that's all.
But I agree with you about tests, forms and other formalities.
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